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Galactic Citizen

Pegasus Mk II-class Star Destroyer


Name/Type: Pegasus Mk II-class Star Destroyer
Designer/Manufacturer: Kashan Defence Industries / Onyxian Commonwealth
Designation: Heavy Cruiser
Crew: 3,836 + 282 Gunners
Length: 1205 Meters
Speed: 20 MGLT, 1200 Kph
Hyperdrive: x0.6
Shield Rating: 6175 SBD + 6175 SBD Back-up
Hull Rating: 2325 RU
Weapons: 50 KDI XIV-7 Heavy Turbolaser Batteries, 40 KDI IV-9 Quad Ion Cannons, 20 KDI L-W4.3 Point-Defence Laser Cannon Batteries, 10 Hansen Feathertouch Tractor Beam Projectors, 20 Starflare Mk II-class Missile Launchers.
Fighter Complement: 48 Medium Fighters (~12 meters), 24 Heavy Fighters (~16 meters) or other equivalent.
Troops: 3,200 Infantry, 20 Sentinel-class Medium Tanks or other equivalent.
Support Craft: 2 Lambda-class Shuttles, 6 Meteor or Raptor Dropships, 4 CG-10 Centaurs.
Other: KIBC II, Gravitron Mk I, AAIS, Magnetorian Sweep

Description: The Pegasus Mk II is the result of the collaboration of Kashan Defence Industries and the Onyxian Commonwealth redesigning the Pegasus-class based on experiences learned from the Imperial incursion at Metalorn. Influenced by the Second Wave school of thought, the Pegasus Mk II is faster and more heavily armed than the Mark I at the cost of thinner hull armor and a lowered ground complement. Due to different construction techniques used in the Mk II, the original Pegasi will not be upgraded to the Mk II, and instead will soldier on within the fleet. The Mark II will instead replace the Mk I in production within the Confederation.

R&D Explanations:

Automation: Automation has been a mainstream technology of Kashan, especially with Kashan Automation. However, while advances were made in programming by the said Kashan corporation, particularly in machine heuristics and learning, nothing in the actual hardware was. As such, the hardware of the Kashan Defence Fleet was bulky as its predecessors within the CIS ships. However, Uffel, upon its membership into the Contegorian Confederation, has contribuated the latest hardware of the planet, which is derived from a Positronic Processor acquired by QS-2D. As such, the space automation has taken up within the ship has been reduced to 30% of what it took up previously.

As with the previously used droid brains they are armored with Quadranium Carbide and Dallorian alloys and are positioned towards the centre of the hull to prevent damage from glancing hits on the vessel. Access to the droid brains themselves is severely restricted and is heavily protected by the ship’s security system, which is discussed below.

While automation certainly has its advantages for the Confederation Fleet, it does have on drawback. Moving and living creatures can help with damage control. Stationary Droid brains aren’t quite as effective to say the least. Thus, the efficiency of the damage control is below average for a ship its size.

KDI Multi-Core Power System: Most starships use a single, massive reactor. The Pegasus Mk II does not, instead reflecting the redundant system philosophy that dominates Kashan engineering. Instead, it relies on a series of smaller reactor cores which are scattered throughout the central regions of the ship linked into two separate power networks. As a result, it is significantly harder to disable the vessel because it would require the destruction or ionization of two separate power systems. From lessons learned at Metalorn, all reactors and generators are heavily armored in Ardanium that has been being stockpiled by the Confederation for some time. As a result of the radiation generated by the ship’s reactors strengthening the metal, it is exceptionally difficult to destroy a reactor.

Engines: The engines on the Pegasus Mk II are similar to those used on the Seraph Mk III, but remain heavily armored like those on the Pegasus Mk I. Aside from carrying a maintenance and repair crew of LE Repair droids, it uses the superconductors to create magnetic fields that can redirect the ion streams of the engines in all matters of angles, which in turn makes the cruiser more maneuverable than most ships of its size. While those elements are not new to KDI design, the Pegasus Mk II has added another innovation: tight-beamed engines. Usually, a starship’s ionic stream begins to disperse shortly after being vented through the engines; the Mk III’s does not. Within the newer compact engines, ultrachrome plating has been used to create magnetic fields that focus the exhaust into a set, tightbeam stream that does not disperse nearly as quickly as that of most ion engines. That in turn makes there less volume with which the ion streams can move within, and thus, adds mass that the engine’s thrust can push off of. This by itself is not very substantial, but combined with the afterburner effects of the magnetic focusing, increase the Pegasus Mk II’s speed.

Hull Construction: The Pegasus Mk II follows the trend set by the Styria-class in that it does not use Ultrachrome armor because of the expense and limited production capabilities of the metal. Instead, the armor is made of Trimantium and Lanthanide and produced in the same fashion as the Ultrachrome plating used on the Pegasus Mk I. Trimantium is used to plate starship hulls. It is extremely durable, and provides a great deal of protection when used in combination with shields (CUSWE). It is also noted for its unusually tensile strength by spacers (WEG). This makes the Pegasus Mk II resistant to solid projectile weapons. Lanthanide is an ultra-dense alloy material was used in the creation of security barriers and personal furniture which was capable of deflecting or absorbing blaster or projectile fire (CUSWE). For the Pegasus Mk II, Lanthanide is capable of partially deflecting energy fire and putting up with more energy abuse than most other similarly sized and armored vessels.

Because warheads are among the gravest threats facing modern-day capital vessels, the Mk II’s armor is Electric Reactive. Obviously the alloy plates serve as the conductive plates in the armor whereas a Quadranium carbide serves as the insulator of the armor(discussed in more detail after the following explanation from Wikipedia):

A new technology of electric reactive armour is in development, where the armour is made up of two or more conductive plates separated by some space or by an insulating material, creating a high-power capacitor. In operation, a high-voltage power source charges the armour. When an incoming body penetrates the plates, it closes the circuit to discharge the capacitor, dumping a great deal of energy into the penetrator, which may vaporize it or even turn it into a plasma, significantly diffusing the attack. It is not public knowledge whether this is supposed to function against both KE-penetrators and shaped charge jets, or only the latter. This technology has not yet been introduced on any operational platform.

Previous Electric Reactive Armors used by the Contegorian Fleet has used various polymers of carbon; long-manufactured for use on the fleet’s Starflare missiles and a few of its small support craft, such as starfighters or probes. In short, it was the most available insulator to the fleet, hence its use. However, more experimentation with ERA using a wide variety of insulators from vacuum to plexiglass, but the most promising were the carbides, whose also had the benefit of an extremely hard refractory ceramic. And of those, Quadranium Carbide(QuC) was found to be the most effective. As with other hard refractory ceramics, Quadranium Carbide has an extremely high melting temperature due to its strong interatomic bonding between molecules. As with other materials of similar nature, it is rather hard and has a high tensile strength, meaning that solid projectiles such as PIMs or slugs do not inflict as much damage. Penetration by such weapons is hampered and reduced because of this layer. A side benefit of this layer is that it does not conduct electrical energy at all, making it effective in stopping the effects of most ion weapons (the exception being PIMs).

Shields: The Pegasus Mk II carries fairly typical shield systems for any modern warship. Like previous KDI ships, the main and back-up shield generator systems are identical. This leads to easier maintenance and improved battle capabilities. All shield generators are located below the armor plating. Thus, the shields themselves are situation just on top of the hull plating. It should be noted that the domes on the bridge tower are not the shield generators, but rather auxiliary sensor domes.

Kashan Hyperdrive: The Hyperdrive found on the Pegasus Mk II is derived from that of the Acclamator-class Military Transport. While the design team did not have an actual Acclamator hyperdrive available to them, they did have several engineers and mechanics who worked on them during the Clone Wars. To the best of their abilities, it was reconstructed. Nonetheless, it still was slower than that of the Acclamators. In the end, the hyperdrive’s rating was raised to Acclamator levels by brute force engineering. It was modified to accept more power. In order to prevent the engine from overheating and melting, it was made with Dallorian Alloy and given an advanced cyro-cooling system.

Ultrachrome MagLev Turrets: Generally, capital-grade weapons are large enough that while those a serious threat to enemy capital vessels, they are not very effective in tracking fast-moving objects like starfighters or missiles. By utilizing the superconductor properties of Ultrachrome, Kashan Defence Industries has designed fast-tracking turrets that allow the turbolasers of the Pegasus Mk II to target enemy starfighters as well if not better than the quad lasers of the Lancer-class frigate. Instead of using conventional hydraulics, by using Ultrachrome rings, the turrets can swivel on a magnetic levitation derived from the charged plating. With no friction and high-speed, the only thing that limits the effectiveness is the software programming that runs them. All weapons on the Pegasus Mk II with the exception of the Starflare-class Missile Tubes are equipped with this turret.

KDI XIV-7 Heavy Turbolaser: Yet another specifically developed weapon, the XIV-7 design is actually based on the rare SW-APE rifle manufactured decades ago. Like that weapon, it has the Stysor blaster chamber's prismatic crystal housing and galvern pattern, that boosted the static pulse output from the weapon's actuating module for a higher range. When this is combined with the ion sheathing and particle accelerator technology currently employed on the Seraph-class, the weapon has 150% of the range as a standard heavy turbolaser. This weapon has the option for flak bursts for use against enemy starfighters and warheads.

KDI IV-9 Quad Ion Cannon: A weapon based on the legacy of the IV-8, this larger weapon differs in having the ionic firepower that is equivalent to that of a normal turbolaser. It uses the same technology as the XIV-7 Heavy Turbolaser, and as such, has 150% range compared to normal turbolasers. This weapon has the option for flak bursts for use against enemy starfighters and warheads.

KDI L-W4.3 Point-Defence Laser Cannon: The L-W4.3 is the reverse of most KDI weapon technology; instead of working of increased aim, the L-W4.3 is intentionally designed with a very short range. However, it’s bolts are as powerful as those of a heavy laser cannon. In addition, the Dallorian-plated weapon has been fitted with a Merr-Sonn advanced rapid-pulse energy module, giving it a high rate of fire. With it’s small size, the servos have little difficulty in rapidly tracking a fast target, making it an ideal defence against missile attacks.

KDI Starflare Mk II-class Missile Tube: The Starflare-class Missile Tube is the launching unit for the Starflare-class Missile. In order to switch warhead types, the Pegasus Mk II uses a revolving rack of the warheads. To prevent premature detonation, the warhead changing process takes place behind durasteel blast doors aside from the Trimantium-Lanthanide hull plating. Also, each warhead is automatically armed only after it leaves the launching tube.

Hansen FeatherTouch Tractor Beam Projector: this tractor beam unit is capable of amazingly fine operations. They can harmlessly pull a bird out of mid-flight, or rip a small freighter to pieces. The FeatherTouch is turret-mounted, allowing it to be used in a multitude of configurations (CUSWE).
Magnetoran Sweep: This Kashan Star Destroyer carries a single powerful magnetoran sweeps, a wide-beam device was used to disrupt targetting computers(CUSWE). Unlike most magnetoran sweeps, this one utilizes the entire hull of the Pegasus to create the electomagnetic field that disrupts and jams enemy weapons and ship subsystems. This system can only be deployed in an arc in front of the Pegasus-class. It is an area-effect weapon, meaning that both friendly and hostile vessels to the ship will be equally effected to it if both are in the area. As such, the Magnetoran Sweep is generally used in the opening of the battle before the two lines of ships usually meet.

Integrated Kashan Battle Computer Mk II: An upgraded version of the KIBC, it includes all of its predecessors equipment and abilities. The main purpose of the Battle Computer is to intertwine, triangulate, and transmit sensor data collected from each ship. This allows the ships to instantly gather target acquisition data and triangulate that data. The triangulation process ensures excellent target data, foiling many anti-targetting and sensor-jamming systems.

The main hardware upgrade was the use of the Uffel reverse-engineered positronic processors, which provide an intense amount of computing power. The KIBC II has more computing power than many Mid-Rim planet’s computers combined. As a result, the KIBC can plot and calculate micro-jumps to anywhere quicker than usual. That in itself still takes roughly a minute. However, by continuing to receive navigational data and supplementary computing power from other ships still in realspace, the user’s ship is capable of making micro-jumps anywhere in realspace. That being said, it is still slightly slower than its Imperial counterpart, but it also does not have energy problems of the Imperial counterpart either.

Like the original KIBC, the network can also provide navigational data from each ship along. Each vessel automatically transmits its location to the other vessel and shares navigational data with it as well. This allows the vessels of the Kashan fleet to act as navigation beacons for hyperspace jumps. As such, it is possible for Kashan ships to make instant intra-system micro-jumps to a Kashan vessel with the Battle Computer.

Anti-Intruder System –
Checkpoints throughout the ship has been implemented, with blast doors lined with durasteel at each checkpoint. Also at every checkpoint are force locks (strong force fields) that will automatically engage to block a person who does not have the proper clearance to that portion of the ship. durasteel also lines the corridor walls to prevent lightsabers from cutting through. At every checkpoint (which are manned by a security droid) are clearance checks – which are done by voice recognition, or ID cards. Access to the bridge is extremely limited, and only officers are allowed entry. Persons wishing to enter the bridge must undergo a fingerprint scan – those who do not have clearance are barred from entry by force locks and blast doors. Also lining the checkpoints are the mark four guardian grids. These grinds are outfitted with laser cannons that track known hostiles and eliminate them. The grids only come online when someone tries to gain access through the checkpoint without clearance.

The anti-intruder system is also designed to penetrate fingerprints to locate forgeries and fakes. The fingerprint scanners have been upgraded to spot fake fingerprints – such as the known fingerprint copying device. The scanner also checks for life signs with in the person. It will not accept clearance from anyone without a pulse of some kind.

Command Facilities: The Pegasus Mk II-class sports two bridges. The observation bridge, which resembles the typical Imperial bridge tower, for normal operations. A battle bridge, located underneath the observation bridge tower, for instances in which using the observational bridge would be dangerous to the ship's command crew.

Comments

#32 8:13pm 13/01/07

Jan, I apologize. I let my emotions get the best of me as well. I don't remember putting such remarks into a roleplay and if I did, they are just "opinions from characters". I do remember making the observation in a private forum for the formulation of ideas for a further roleplays and to suddenly have our "enemy" know my thought processes was very disconcerting.

A replay of Ralen entered my mind and that someone was infiltrating.

TNO has already been infiltrated once with dire consequences for the offender. I certainly do not want a repeat.


As for the realism. As with all things there does need to be balance.

There are points to both sides on the issue Jan brought up and they have been stated here.


end of thread.

#31 7:19pm 13/01/07

Beff: In light of Joren's comment, I have to think that yes, this conversation does need to take place. It is evident to me that people are not understanding the concept of realism on TRF. The fact that it illicted such a severe response from Om is, I think, evidence that this situation is getting ridiculous. I think if we don't reach a settlement now, this issue will just keep rearing its ugly head again and again until the staff get sick of it and someone gets banned, or leaves TRF. Neither of those options are particularly good ones.

[QUOTE=Joren Logan]I think you all need to stop talking about being realistic, when we RP in a made-up galaxy. [/QUOTE]So when I attack the GC with a fleet of 100 Death Stars, that will be fine, because we're just throwing realism out the window.

But of course, what you really want is for TNO to roleplay realistically (which we do, generally) and the GC to be exempt from such restrictions as "following the rules".

Because if you'd take a second to read TRF's [b]one[/b] rule, you would know that realism is central to how we operate:

[i] [QUOTE]What could logically work is what will work.[/QUOTE][/i]By extension, then, what logically will not work will not work. So of course we're going to talk about realism.

And I think Jan, Corise, and you need to stop and take a look at how the GC is operating. Because, logically, this kind of massive spending cannot be mantained.

GC was crippled by the last war. They are currently engaged in another major war. They have completely revamped their entire fleet.

Are you printing money? Because at this rate, that's the only explanation. Things cost money, and if you're response to that is "I don't want to talk about realism", then we should be concerned.

#30 6:48am 13/01/07

I stopped reading after the fifth or sixth post.

I have but one question for everyone involved; does this convorsation really need to take place?

Some antics.

#29 5:38am 13/01/07

I think you all need to stop talking about being realistic, when we RP in a made-up galaxy.

TRF changed from the bean counting because people focused all their energies to bean counting. Now, things have changed from "build as many ships as you can and keep an accurate list of it! to "be as realistic as possible! and make sure you don't overstep your bounds!"

Instead of us being ship-count watchdogs, we become realistic-shit watchdogs.

Because the moment someone does something which they might think is realistic, but someone else doesn't, they get pounced on.




Usually by Drayson.



Edit: one other thing, if you are going to go all realistic on us, that weapons order my guy posted in that thread AT MOST would run into a few million credits. Easily afforded by the Onyxian Commonwealth (which is the largest subfaction of GC and can easily handle a large weapons order such as this), and as I've RPed, Section 8 is fully backed by us.

So don't use that as an example, because it's flat-out bullshit. That weapons order was legit, and my guy did nothing wrong.

#28 5:03am 13/01/07

[quote]allied independant systems which answer to a democratically elected central government, who want what is best for their people, want the "right, just and good side to win" and who most importantly are very pro-military, even if that is predominately pro-military to defend themselves[/quote]

Slap that on the recruitment posters and watch your ranks swell!

#27 3:20am 13/01/07

Simon, I hadn't seen your post when I made my post, but as you can tell, I abandoned the argument. That being said, I'm not exactly sure what conversation you were refering to about mentioning GC was going to go broke in a private forum, I was more refering to your IC posts to the affect that GC is going broke. Not that it really matters.

#26 3:19am 13/01/07

Lightside be damned!

#25 3:08am 13/01/07

Well as Corise said, this isn't the time and place for it. And I'll concede that I was very angry (due too vast lack of sleep) at the time of the post. And angry when I wrote a long argumentative response to Drayson's and Kraken's posts.

But I will skip the argument, just wanted to make a couple quick points for sheer informational value, not an argument (the points I had that would have been argumentative have been removed).

GC did/I think still does, use clones (thanks to the ORS, Black Hand, ORF route)

GC has nationalized companies just like TNO. We don't have a list like you guys posted, but they have been RPed as so.

The Empire would reasonably have a large bureaucracy as well. The Empire in canon did, every government has one, stands to reason the Empire would as well (Hyfe can't due everything himself).

In my opinion, the description of the Coalition being a group of "allied independant systems" is lacking and incomplete. It would more be along the lines of "allied independant systems which answer to a democratically elected central government, who want what is best for their people, want the "right, just and good side to win" and who most importantly are very pro-military, even if that is predominately pro-military to defend themselves". You see, GC's planetary takeovers generally consist planets joining for the added military advantage that would be gained by joining GC. So obviously one of, if not the, main priority in GC is the military. So I could view us as a "militant democracy". Like the US, which is in fact the strongest military in the world, yet not a dictatorship (and no I wasn't not comparing GC to the US in the sense that the US is a superpower, just showing the militant democracy idea [I'm also not calling the US militants]).

And Kraken, now where was I god-moding or planning to god-mode. I was fully intending to wait for the discussion to evolve and see where it went, to see what was possibly and what wouldn't be. I know the rules, I know how to not god-mode and I was not intending on god-moding.

Now I think we should all move off this topic of discussion (and yes I know I was the one who started it. It was not a wise move on my part for multiple reasons. I let myself be controlled by my anger, which was largely fueled by the fact I didn't sleep last night (long story, don't ask), and more importantly, I let myself fall to a level that was inappropriate.

We have a lot of new members here at TRF, this thread will do nothing for them except to illustrate the bad points that can happen in a competitive fleet environment, with none of the good points. Therefore I lay the subject to rest in an effort to show the new members that we at TRF are not as bad as this thread might them think we are (or as they probably would have thought of us had we continued the argument, I know Demos is stubborn, in a good way, I know I was angry and therefore very stubborn and I'm sure the argument would not have ended well). I hope the above points in my post aren't argumentative and rather inform members on some information on GC, or at least information as I see it, its possible Dolash has a slightly less militaristic view, though for some reason I doubt it. If either Demos or Kraken really want to comment on one of the points I was making in this post in a manner that could turn into an argument, feel free to PM, IM or email me.

#24 2:50am 13/01/07

[B]Corise:
[/B]

You might have a point about the Stygium Crystals. In reading descriptions in Wookepedia, I think, while these crystals may be more readily available than your Ultrachrome, I do not think the Empire would have an unlimited supply to field thousands of fighters in military production and continue to supply the necessary numbers to replace their inevitable loss that would come with combat duty.

Which, therefore, would mean the loss of fighters with stygium cloaks would be more costly than the loss of Tie Interceptors or Tie Fighters.




As for the R&D design time, I don't remember what it was before except that for each meter of the R&D craft, there was an applicable OOC design time and then there was a build time for each ship, shipyards could build so much a day (so an ISD would take an OOC week to build in one yard), and people would keep tract of how many ships they had and because they waited so long for their stuff people were stingy about what they'd want to lose and fought tooth and nail over every stupid hit. People got so wrapped up in numbers and such that roleplaying actually became a drudgery. Also, inevitably, we'd have people starting their own secondary groups to gain more yards to augment ship numbers in their fleets and it became a mess to manage as people began to have more fun breaking the rules than actually roleplaying.


Now one such as yourself would have probably liked that environment in which case I can only ask: Where the hell were you 2-3 years ago?


There is no problem with your design. Drayson's talking about the cost involved in doing a major refit or redesign is true. But until you play the ship IC, we do not consider all of that to have actually happened. Because just because you jot the R&D down and even explain what it does in 500 words, it does not mean you will play it. Some have put an R&D up and we've yet to see it in roleplay. Does this mean that the unfinished prototype is sitting in a shipyard berth somewhere? No. It just means the drawing never got approved for production.

The expense and cost of rebuilding a ship isn't really factored, in my opinion, until the ship is actually in play. That's why I say Drayson's talk of redesigning a ship does not apply because right now, there is no ship.. only a drawing on paper. Minimal cost there. No retooling, no foundry making,etc.. etc..

All that cost is factored in when the ship springs into existence in your first rp story.



What Drayson and you seem to be hung up on is whether or not the expense is justified and something reasonably done or not. He says no because it's a major redesign and you say yes because you replaced barracks (inside a ship) with guns (outside the ship). Unless, of course, you put the guns inside the area once occupied by the barracks on Deck 8, but then I don't know what kind of refit that would be.

At this point, it doesn't matter. Because, if you want to go through such an expense, you are entirely entitled too.


I have no problem with detailed R&D's. I just don't want a newbie writing something like you [B]and then [/B] think the following: that everything happens in order like a computer game


SHIP STATS
Shield: 9000 SBD
HULL: 8500 RU
Internal Defenses: every 5 feet is a checkpoint with guards and tracking intruder defense blasters...


(ROLEPLAY)

[QUOTE]

BAM!

BAM!

Shield: 1200 SBD
Hull: 8500 RU

BAM!

BAM! <-- ISD shots (wtf is it with me and ISD's?)

Shields: 0!!!! *OMWTF!!!*
Hull: 7000 *whew*


**TNO GANGBANG!**

"motherfuckers!"


WHAM!

BAM!

GANG!

BANG!


Shield: 0
Hull: 2 *@#$@#$@#!!!*


FLICK!


Hull: 0



*Enemy boards*


Internal Defense: every 5 feet, anti intruder devices shoot!!!!
KILL ALL BOARDERS!
LOL10101!!LOL!!
[/QUOTE]

To: Newbies... when the shields are getting hit, there may be hull or internal damage as the ship shakes around alot so your uber internal defenses may not work on a dime or as expected or at all if/when the enemy gets around to actually boarding. Maybe a tech drops his cup of acid that falls on the super metallic cover of the ship's internal AI? When the hull reaches 0, the ship is gone.. no more internal defenses.








[B]Now to Jan:[/B]
*glances as everyone scoots closer*


First of all, I don't need you to be scared of me or in fear of me. If you want to scratch and howl and bark at SIMON KAINE from your corner to prove that you've got a pair, go right ahead. I am unaffected.

But I must ask:

Where do you get off throwing mud in my face over some comments I made to others in a private forum?

But now that you made them public, you know what?


[B]The GC is fucking losing money![/B] By the trainload. Although Drayson had a huge-point, my comment was based on the following:

A). GC is in a FUCKING WAR that has burned several worlds, trashed an entire fleet, cost countless lives and an immeasurable amount of monetary damage that you'll be years repairing! Not to mention, Phage outbreaks and treatment!? The damage to Mon Calamari will be decades fixing!

Couple that with the fact that this is your second most devestating war GC will have fought within a 3 year period. Hell, the damage done to you from the last war is still around as what money you [U]were[/U] left with went back to rebuilding your fleet after TNO enacted harsh economic sanctions at the end of the last war (taking your production facilities and dissecting what fleet you had left as spoils of war). I liken GC after last war to Germany after WWI. You went on to revamp your entire fleet, R&Ds and went on this Second Wave kick that you left no doubt where your spending went!

And after all that time in getting yourself back up to somewhat where you were before... you threw it away again on a war. Even if you win, what have you gained but the expense of rebuilding what was destroyed and burying what you've killed?

B). ROB STELLAR! You're spending so much money on him that he's loving you like the lost second cousins he never knew he had! In terms you understand, what income do you gain when you purchase a video game? None. What income do you gain when you spend money on ships built by the wanna-be Walmart of the Galaxy, Stellar Enterprises? None! Oh sure the ship is nice. It was expensive, and now you have to crew it, outfit it and guess what? All that takes money! Stellar and GC are tied at the hip with no prenuptual. Kudo's to Rob! Take em for all their worth!



C) GC has NO CONCEPT OF MONEY. Here is a recent shopping list of a lowly GC Colonel of some typical government un-organization:

[QUOTE]Planetary Emplacements:
1 DSS-02 Theatre Shield Generator
1 DATA Management System
1 Hypervelocity Cannon
20 G-003 Tri-Trackers
10 Multi-ordnance flak pods
10 QuasarFire turbolaser turrets
10 Heavy Sonic Cannons

Mines:
400 3HX3 repulsorlift mines
600 Anti-matter micromines
200 Imperial Atmospheric Explosives
100 Empion mines
600 I.M. mines

Chemical Weapons:
Loedorvian Brain Plague
Bilal Gas
Nano-destroyer
Neuro Poison
Neutron dissembler
Pacifog
Jurrinex6
FNV-23 and FNV-23-B

Firearms:
40 CR-28 flame cannons
1000 DC-15s Blaster Pistols
600 Stouker Concussion Blast Rifles
200 A280 Blaster Rifles
400 PLX-4 Missile Launchers
2000 Merr-Sonn M-434 DeathHammers
200 SoroSuub FastShots
200 BlasTech Last Resorts
400 of each model of the E-11 Blaster Carbie
60 Prax Arms Model AFD-43 "Sniper"
100 SoroSuub EZ-Snap 48sRs
40 T-415 Blaster Rifles
100 Arakyd Corporation's XP-X1s
100 BlasTech T-21s
80 Merr-Sonn EWHB-10 "E-Web"s

Explosives:
600 Baradium-core code key thermal detonators
1000 Class-A thermal detonator
2000 Class-E thermal detonator
1000 Flash detonators
2000 7-PrG Proton Grenades
2000 CryoBan grenades
500 Concussion bombs

Droids:
As many Droideka Mark II's as possible
As many Nova-class dark troopers as possible
2 Foreign Intruder Defense Organisms
100 LM-432 crab droids

Power Source:
The strongest one you have...and plenty of it.[/QUOTE]


Seriously. WTF?

If a fucking Colonel is able to fill out a GC purchase order on all of that, then I can't even begin to guess the pork-buffets and greased palms of GC politicians and Admiralty! I mean shit, is there any regulation on spending here? I am waiting for Private Dark Adept to reveal himself as a GC operative and put in his order for 3 Death Stars!



But hey, it's all for fun. So cool. Have fun.


But don't go crying like bitches when your economy collapses. The only thing keeping you solvent right now (and I would say 'barely') is the Onyxian Commonwealth and maybe Contegorian. But then again, Contegorian Confederation spends their money only on themselves and thumbs their nose at the rest of the GC though they'll claim GC backing when it explains how many fucking warships they have. So the the Confederation is a fucking millstone around the GC finances as well. Still, he's got cool ships!

Not to mention the worlds that are taken do not immediately begin shelling out money as maybe their economy is not doing so well at first... I mean, hell, what is the GC's main sales pitch? Most probably join the GC because of what [U]they can get[/U]! Not what they can give! Everyone talks about what the GC (the rest of the other planets making up this Coalition of spending) can do for them but no one ante's up to foot the bill.

So pardon the fuck out of me if, in the light of all this, I say to a fellow or two, the GC seems on the brink of bankruptcy and on the verge of depression!




Rant was a typed listening to Planet of the Apes soundtract provided by Seth Vinda...

#23 12:46am 13/01/07

I really hate to interupt this debate but I laughed when I read this:

[QUOTE] Now imagine what would happen if the USA was led by a military despot[/QUOTE]

You mean we aren't? He's just in the mobilizing stage at this point.

#22 12:28am 13/01/07

I have no objections to you following the old rule. No upgrades.

#21 9:46pm 12/01/07

Hold on!

*gets up, grabs a bag of popcorn and a big gulp of coke*

Continue.

#20 9:19pm 12/01/07

I think this is getting a little out of hand, seriously. I don't know who's right, or who's wrong, but this is starting to look like the OOC thread for H&G, which isn't a good thing for either side, or even the community as a whole. I admit I have some ideas of my own I would like to express, but I don't think this is the thread for that. If this is a serious issue, let the staff talk it over and come up with an agreement.

Let me ask two questions without trying to stir up more controversey. I know that there was an upgrade time in the past version of the R&D rules. What is the old time required to upgrade a design? If so, would there be any objections to me following that rule for this case only?

#19 8:44pm 12/01/07

[quote]So, in summary, sit down, shut the fuck up, look in the mirror and realize that TNO isn't this huge fucking government that you say it is and doesn't have a ton of cash. In fact, if GC is as broke as it has been said, then TNO is just as broke, or more so. And I will start RPing TNO in that manner. That or GC has a hidden stash of cash and a hidden fleet that we are just pretending we don't have for some unknown reason.[/quote]

Except that TNO is a huge fucking goverment, spanning the entire galaxy, from the Core regions straight into the Outer-Rim territories, with well established trade routes, economically developed planets, and a military dictatorship that takes advantage of all that to put most of those funds gathered into the Empire's military strength. The Galatic Coalition on the other hand is a loosely scattered group of mini-empires all over the place, and is described as being every world for it's self, with it's leaders acutley aware of the need of it's people and place their military as their second priority.

And no, just because GC is broke does not mean TNO is broke. I would say that TNO is somewhere between one half and three quarters torwards the breaking point of it's economy. And newbs, take notice that Jan here is openly talking about god-moding in order to help correct the situation. That's something you'll have to be wary of when RPing for the Galatic Coalition.

#18 7:04pm 12/01/07

Corise: it's not the feasibility of designing upgrades, but the frequency with which you do so. TNO has a Mark V Astrus. We're set roughly fifty years after Yavin, so that means one upgrade per decade. The Pegasus is less than an IC year old, so at this rate you'll be on Mark 50 in 50 years time.

Also: the Confederacy is a sub-group of the Coalition. You made that choice, you live with the implications thereof. You cannot have the best of both worlds - the GC's help when you need it, but magically escape harm when they falter.

And while single engagements have shown certain technology to be obsolete, that is by no means the case here, and a totally invalid comparison. You're not moving forward as technology moves forward, you're claiming a slight upgrade in light of an insigificant, minor engagement. No government period would fund this research, because it's unneccessary and unrealistic. See below for why the GC (of which you are a part) would never fund said research. Indeed, one could argue, why they could not afford to fund such research!

Jan: you cannot compare TNO and the GC on the same level. TNO is a militaristic dictatorship with a hundred worlds under it's iron grip. The GC, while mantaining a strong military machine, is (by Dolash's definition) a collection of independent planets. That alone means that our military budget is going to many times greater than your own.

Also consider that, financially, a dictatorship is less expensive than a democracy. No massive bureaucracy to pay for. No elections to pay for, and on and on.

Now consider that TNO holds not only many worlds, but many financially strategic worlds. Corellia, Commenor, Muunilist, etc. are all major trading depots, located along major trade routes. This means a massive influx of cash. Also consider that TNO operates the largest of the shipyard worlds: Kuat, Yaga Minor, Bilbringi, Sluis Van, Fondor, etc. This means that our capacity to build starships is likely greater than your own (economy of scale).

Next, look at the difference in production between our two systems. TNO makes extensive use of both slave labour and cloning. This reduces dramatically the cost of producing each ship. Cloning reduces the cost of crewing ships, as well as the associated training costs. Again, this means that our cost of production is lower than your own.

Now consider the fact that TNO has nationalized companies to take care of many aspects of its production: we have a [url="http://therebelfaction.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5544"]list[/url] on our board. This means component parts are cheaper for the Empire to produce, leading to cheaper production levels.

So your point about TNO being less than twice the GC's size means nothing. You are not a military dictatorship, you have different spending priorities. Look at Canada and the European Union. They are the same size population-wise (roughly), and yet the USA has a significantly stronger military, due to the fact that they are a more militaristic nation. Now imagine what would happen if the USA was led by a military despot. It's armed forces would be massive by comparison. Now imagine the USA relied in part on clones and slave labour to build and soldier that army, and it would be virtually unstopable. Such a comparison is, I think, legitimate between TNO and the GC.

You cannot simply look at the number of planets held and pretend it's a be all end all. It's not.

And, need I remind you that the GC is involved in a large-scale war at the moment? War does not come cheapy, Jan. It is a massive commitment of money - just look at how much the USA has spent on a relatively small war on a single front (Iraq). A large-scale war like the one between BDE and the GC would be enough to cripple your economy in and of itself. Look at what happened to Europe after the end of WW2 as an example of this.

Likewise, your expansion of late has to have been straining your economy. In the long term, yes, adding ground will help, but there is a large short-term cost of spreading your government. Deploying warships, implimenting your infastructure, building new defences, etc., all cost money. And the GC has taken a lot of ground of late - ergo, they have taken a substantial short term shock, I should think.

Likewise, R&D costs a lot of money. The GC recently totally revamped their entire fleet system - an entirely new type of warship, built from the ground up, and entirely new production facilities to build them. Look at the cost a real government has to develop one new fighter jet, and then to develop it. Now imagine they redesigned and began production of their entire armed forces at once! Again, this is not cheap.

It is evident to me, Jan, that you fail to understand (or don't care) about a realistic view of economics. I suggest you take Macroeconomics 101, as perhaps it will help you understand why you cannot look at TNO and the GC's number of planets and assume that means TNO has twice as many ships/whatever as the GC. Suffice to say, our military budget is many times more than your own, and our production costs are lower. Ergo, our military is substantially more powerful than your own.

Even if TNO and the GC had the same number of planets, there would a very good case for TNO having a more powerful fleet. More goes into this than just planet numbers - the resources we have access to, methods of production, and on and on all determine relative strength.

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