General/TNO R&D: Executor class Star Destroyer

The Rebel Faction » Universe » Research & Development » General/TNO R&D: Executor class Star Destroyer

The following is technically an R&D submission, but a post to clear up the hazy areas surrounding the Executor-class Star Destroyer's performance and design so that those that have them (the two left in the galaxy!) can role-play with them more effectively. The numbers below are not an excuse for the owners to completely waste enemy ships or fleets. As always, common sense and not Kach Thorton's speculative R&D thread should be the basis for any of your role-plays involving the vessel in order to make threads more enjoyable for both participants and readers.

***

Huge, Powerful, and Majestic, the Executor-class Star Destroyer is considered to be one of the most spectacular and beautiful vessels ever built, even compared to the larger Eclipse-class. However, at least OOC wise, the ship is surrounded by a cloud of mystery and confusion that I intend to address myself.

The biggest and longest lasting debate involving the vessel has been on its length. Official sources, including The Essential Guide to Vessels and Vehicles claim Executor-class Star Destroyers are 8,000 meters long. However, Canon evidence says otherwise. Compared to Imperial-class Star Destroyers on screen in the last two movies, the Executor appears approximately 10 or 11 times longer, twice the size of the "Official" number.

The most widespread explanation for this- and the one both I and from what I've read, TRF, endorse- is that there are in fact two versions of the ship, the larger Executor I at 16,000 or 17,600 meters in length and the II class, of the 8,000 meter length stated by most sources.

By this explanation, the first Executors built- the twin ships Executor and Lusankya - were of the I class, and all later vessels- such as the Knight's Hammer, Guardian, and Iron Fist- were of the smaller II type.

(It should be noted that, on TRF, there is a 12,800 meter long III class that is in service with the Empire. However, to date only one has been built, Bhindi Drayson's flagship, the Acheron.)

This explanation, to me, makes sense. Vader and Isard were very powerful people in Palpatine's Empire and would both certainly merit one of the larger vessels. And with the Empire producing two of these mammoth ships and two Death Stars in just a few years, it would be a natural cost saving measure to develop a budget version for service in fleet elements such as the Black Fleet- The 8,000 meter Executor II.

For armament, Executors of both the I and II class are said to have 250 Heavy Turbolaser Cannons, 250 Heavy Turbolaser Batteries, 250 Concussion Missile Tubes, and 250 Heavy Ion Cannons by most sources, once again including the Essential Guide (it should be noted not all do- Inside the Worlds of the Star Wars trilogy gives the Executor 5,000 Turbolasers and 5,000 Ion Cannons). 1000 weapons emplacements is quite a few, yes, but for a ship that has the area of 25 ISDs (to say nothing of volume) that's nothing. Like giving an ISD ten Turbolasers and Ten Ion Cannons. The Imperial Navy has never been, and certainly wasn't then, one to be modest. Rest assured Executors of both the I and II class were armed to the teeth, and that's whey I'm sure the official armament list is incorrect. In addition, 144 fighters is nothing for a ship it's size. Therefore, below I intend to calculate what would be a more reasonable spec, basing the calculations on the three canon variants of ISD. The statistics of the ships are below...

(From the NIF RPG Database)

Name/Type: Imperator Mk I-class Star Destroyer
Designer/Manufacturer: Lira Wessex / Kuat Drive Yards
Designation: Heavy Cruiser
Crew: 26,810 + 275 Gunners
Length: 1605 meters
Speed: 60 MGLT
Hyperdrive: x2
Shield Rating: 4800 SBD
Hull Rating: 2272 RU
Weapons: 60 Taim & Bak XX-9 Heavy Turbolasers (class 5), 60 Borstel NK-7 Ion Cannons (class 3), 10 Phylon Q7 Tractor Beam Projectors (class 6), 2 Minelayers.
Fighter Complement: 6 Squadrons.
Troops: 9,700 Stormtroopers, 20 AT-ATs , 30 AT-STs, 1 Pre-fabricated Garrison Base.
Support Craft: 12 Titan-class Landing Barges, 8 Lambda-class Shuttles, 15 Stormtrooper Transports, 5 Star Wing Assault Gunboats, variable number of Skipray Blastboats, Gamma-class Assault Shuttles, deep space probes, probe droids and repair & recovery vehicles.

Name/Type: Imperator Mk II-class Star Destroyer
Designer/Manufacturer: Kuat Drive Yards
Designation: Heavy Cruiser
Crew: 36,755 + 330 Gunners
Length: 1,605 Meters
Speed: 60 MGLT
Hyperdrive: x1
Shield Rating: 5760 SBD
Hull Rating: 2953 RU (est.)
Weapons: 50 Heavy Taim & Bak Turbolaser Batteries, 50 Heavy Taim & Bak Turbolaser Cannons, 12 Borstel RH8 Laser Cannon Batteries, 2 Phylon Q7 Tractor Beam Projectors, 2 Minelayers.
Fighter Complement: 6 squadrons
Troops: 9,700 Stormtroopers
Support Craft: 5 Alpha Class XG-1 Star Wings, 15 Delta Class Dx-9 or Dx-9s Transports, 8 Lambda Class T-4a Shuttles, 12 Titan-class Landing Barges, 8 Lambda-class Shuttles, variable number of Skipray Blastboats, deep space probes, probe droids and repair & recovery vehicles, 1 Gamma Class Assault Shuttle and 1 TIE Shuttle Craft.

Name/Type: Imperator Mk III-class Star Destroyer
Designer/Manufacturer: Kuat Drive Yards
Designation: Heavy Cruiser
Crew: 36,755 + 668 Gunners
Length: 1,605 Meters
Speed: 70 MGLT
Hyperdrive: x1
Shield Rating: 6200 SBD
Hull Rating: 3000 RU
Weapons: 64 Heavy Taim & Bak Turbolaser Batteries, 64 Heavy Taim & Bak Turbolaser Cannons, 30 Heavy Ion Cannons, 64 Borstel RH8 Laser Cannon Batteries, 10 Phylon Q7 Tractor Beam Projectors, 2 Minelayers, 6 Torpedo Octet Launchers.
Fighter Complement: 6 Squadrons.
Troops: 9,700 Stormtroopers, 120 Zero-G Assault Troopers, 20 AT-ATs, 30 AT-STs, 1 Pre-fabricated Garrison Base.
Support Craft: 12 Titan-class Landing Barges, 6 Alpha-class XG-1 Star Wings, 4 GAT-12m Skipray Blastboats, 15 Delta Class Dx-9 or Dx-9s Transports , 8 Lambda Class T-4a Shuttles, 3 Gamma Class Assault Shuttles, 48 Probe Droids, 12 Combat Utility Vehicles, 2 TIE/ew and 2 TIE/fc, deep space probes, probe droids and repair & recovery vehicles, 1 Gamma Class Assault Shuttle and 1 TIE Shuttle Craft.
Modifications: Integrated Cloaking System

(Yes, I know the speeds are whacked, but other than that I find it the best database on the net).

So those are the figure's I'm going to use as I calculate the below.

Like I was saying, the armament was terribly low for a ship it's size, so...

ISD I
60 Taim & Bak XX-9 Heavy Turbolasers (x25= 1,500)
60 Borstel NK-7 Ion Cannons (x25= 1,500)
10 Phylon Q7 Tractor Beam Projectors (x25= 250)
2 Minelayers (x25= 50)

Using ISD I statistics an Executor II could have 3,300 weapons emplacements, however, the Imperial two was just entering service about the same time, so it's armament might also be used as a basis...

ISD II
50 Heavy Taim & Bak Turbolaser Batteries (x25= 1,250)
50 Heavy Taim & Bak Turbolaser Cannons (x25= 1,250)
12 Borstel RH8 Laser Cannon Batteries (x25= 300)
2 Phylon Q7 Tractor Beam Projectors (x25= 50)
2 Minelayers (x25= 50)

That gives 3,000, slightly less emplacements than an ISD one. So we can guess the Executor II would have between 3,000-3,300 weapons emplacements when first built, and the Executor I, four times the size of the II, could have between 12,000 and 13,200, quite a few more than the official lists!

Later versions, however, could also derive their number of weapons emplacements from the later Imperial III, which entered service as the cloned Emperor was building up his fleet to strike the New Republic.

64 Heavy Taim & Bak Turbolaser Batteries (x25= 1,600)
64 Heavy Taim & Bak Turbolaser Cannons (x25= 1,600)
30 Heavy Ion Cannons (x25= 750)
64 Point Defense Laser Cannons (not counted in Weapons emplacements figure, x25 = 1,600)
10 Phylon Q7 Tractor Beam Projectors (x25= 250)
2 Minelayers (x25= 50)
6 Torpedo Octet Launchers. (each made of 4 PT launchers) (6x4x25= 600)

So later Executor IIs, such as the Knight’s Hammer or Guardian, could have up to 4,850 Weapons Emplacements (Executor IIIs like the Ancheron could have twice this number, 9,700), and another 1,600 Point Defense Laser Cannons.

In addition to actual weapons emplacements, I think the figure of 144 fighters is far too low. So…

72*25 gives us 1,800 fighters for both new and old versions of the Executor II, quite a few. Plus, there’s support craft. I’m not going to stick the calculations on here, there’s too many sub-cap ships and it’d take two or three pages, but here’s what I got…

ISD I
300 Titan-class Landing Barges
200 Lambda-class Shuttles,
375 Stormtrooper Transports,
125 Star Wing Assault Gunboats,
Plus an variable number of Skipray Blastboats, Gamma Assault Shuttles, deep space probes, Probots, and Repair and Recovery vehicles.

ISD II
125 Alpha Class XG-1 Star Wings
375 Delta Class Dx-9 or Dx-9s Transports
200 Lambda Class T-4a Shuttles
300 Titan-class Landing Barges
25 Gamma Class Assault Shuttle
25 TIE Shuttle Craft.
Plus a variable number of Skipray Blastboats, deep space probes, probe droids and repair & recovery vehicles

Therefore, early versions could have carried between 800 and 1,100 shuttles. Later versions, however…

300 Titan-class Landing Barges
150 Alpha-class XG-1 Star Wings
100 GAT-12m Skipray Blastboats
375 Delta Class Dx-9 or Dx-9s Transports
200 Lambda Class T-4a Shuttles
75 Gamma Class Assault Shuttles
1200 Probe Droids (not included in shuttle figure)
300 Combat Utility Vehicles
50 TIE/ew
50 TIE/fc
25 TIE Shuttle Craft.
Plus a variable number of deep space probes and repair & recovery vehicles.

This gives later ships, such as the Knight’s Hammer a Shuttle Complement of 1,625 along with a fighter complement of 1,800.

Shields aren’t something that is commonly speculated on or debated. It’s generally agreed that they are massive and there’s no need to debate. But by scouring the Internet, I have found the following for shield and Armor ratings…

Wikipedia
Hull Plating 45712 U
Deflector Shielding 96000 U

NIF RPG Database (same place I got the ISD status above)
Shield Rating: 108000 SBD
Hull Rating: 45000 RU

I believe they are low, however. Using an ISD one’s shield and hull ratings, we get the following…

Shield Rating: 4800 SBD (x25 = 120,000 SBD)
Hull Rating: 2272 RU (x25 = 56,800)

Massive! And when ISD II and III ratings are used, the figures only grow…

Shield Rating: 5760 SBD (x25 = 144,000)
Hull Rating: 2953 RU (x25 = 73,825

Shield Rating: 6200 SBD (x25 = 155,000)
Hull Rating: 3000 RU (x25 = 75,000)

Like with armament and fighter complement, these figures would be multiplied 4 times to give the Executor I’s status, or by two to give the Executor IIIs. Dang, that’s big!

As for speed, with ten engines the size of an ISD, I could easily see the ship with twice the maximum speed. However, because that’s just plain unfair, I’d guess it’d be capable of a far more modest 2/3rds of an Imperial Star Destroyer’s Sublight speed, about 12 MGLT.

However, the Executor’s massive power comes at a steep price not only at the space-dock but also in the logistics department. 25 times the size of an ISD, it would make sense for it to also have 25 times the crew complement and troop complement (which would give 677,125 crew with the ISD one and 1,125,125 with the two model, with 242,500 Troops supported by 500 AT-ATs and 750 AT-STs), but I find these figures fantastically high for a ship only 8,000 meters long rivaling the Death Star in sheer manpower (which had only a million souls and maximum complement). A more accurate number, I believe, for the Executor II is the 280,374 crewers stated by Wikipedia with 38,000 troops (with 40 AT-ATs and 60 AT-STs) since many tasks on the smaller ships would overlap and take away a need for many crew such as those on the bridge and in fire control.

So after all that, here’s what we get…*

Executor II-class Star Destroyer
Length- 8,000m
Beam- 3,000m
Height- 850m

Complement- 280,374 Crew plus 38,000 troops (with 40 AT-ATs and 60 AT-STs)

Speed-
a. Normal- 8 MGLT
b. Flanking-12 MGLT
c. Emergency- 16MGLT
Hyperdrive- Class 2

Shields- 112,500 SBD
Hull- 56,800 RU

Fighter Complement- 1,800 Fighters and Bombers in 150 Squadrons
Other Support Craft- 1,500 Shuttles

Armament- (yes there’s 5,000 emplacements, slightly above the ISD III numbers, but I believe that with less crew there’d be more room for power generators and other do dads to allow this.) 1,500 Heavy Turbolaser Cannons, 1,500 Heavy Turbolaser Batteries, 1,500 Heavy Ion Cannon Batteries, 500 Misc. Projectile Launchers

(*Executor IIIs would have about twice this number, since they are about twice as big, and Is would have about four times)

So to make a long story short, if you own one of the two Executor-class Star Destroyers in the galaxy you are a very lucky bastard indeed.

Comments

#50 1:23pm 04/05/10

[quote]Which makes me wonder where you all kept your symbols of awesome power, why they weren't at Coruscant using their awesome power to try and defend the planet and, if they were present, how such awesome powerful ships could escape notice and subsequent attack?[/quote]

I don't know where Kach is coming from about all four still being intact. It was my interpretation that one was destroyed by the Cree'Ar at Yaga Minor while still under construction, and another was destroyed by the same at the Battle of Coruscant during the initial Cree'Ar assault, leaving one intact in the hands of MRP and another finishing up at Kuat that will be assigned to Kach and his power base.

As for construction capacity, I assumed that these four vessels represented 75% of all construction capacity of the Empire during this time period, and contributed to the crisis of a shortage of hulls that the Empire now faces.

#49 9:18am 04/05/10

I cannot answer you, Lover. I was on sabatical - but IC my SSD and I were in Onyx, fighting a very different but also very real threat. You would have to ask my fellow lords of the fleet.

#48 7:33am 04/05/10

[QUOTE]symbols of the awesome power held by so few individuals.[/QUOTE]

Which makes me wonder where you all kept your symbols of awesome power, why they weren't at Coruscant using their awesome power to try and defend the planet and, if they were present, how such awesome powerful ships could escape notice and subsequent attack?

#47 7:28am 04/05/10

Keep in mind that Simon Kaine took an ESD with him into the Unknown Regions, and Hyfe was on his ESD when he was sucked into a wormhole by the Dominion. Does that account for two of them?

#46 7:27am 04/05/10

I am curious where this contention is coming from? When did we launch four brand new SSDs? Who said we did? I should probably go back and read everything so Im not talking out of my ass, but as I said, I do not think we have launched a new SSD for what - years? Not counting the Conquerors, of course.

It makes sense, IC-ly, to have taken whatever remote resources were to be eventually maybe and possibly devoted to SSD construction and put them into the production of ships of the line and supporting vessels due to our horrendous losses. Our current ships can be refitted far easier - and far more cheaply - than rebuilding new ones.

I think the figure of, say, four SSDs - total - is accurate. Why? Because they are symbols - symbols of the very real fear the Empire inspires, and symbols of the awesome power held by so few individuals. The Emperor would have one, the senior Grand Admiral would have one, and Admiral Thorton would have one. The other would be used by another NPC admiral - or grand admiral - as a plot device and thus obtainable by our other prominent characters sucha s Vasily or Wes. I dont think Wes would want one since he is the type of man to prefer scalpels to broadswords.

I could even bend to say we have a half dozen, simply because of the centralization of power and the fact that the ships are years old - Desaria's Autarch was launched twenty years ago.

SSDs are remarkably hard ships to kill, and considerabley resilient. The loss of one at Thyferra as referenced was due to poor captaincy, poor command, and general incompetence. Wouldnt happen again. But, maybe it could. depends on how well the story is written.

I would like this thread ended once a decision is made on just how many SSDs we do, in fact, have. One, it would not be a matter for general IC consideration since we would lie and say we have...twenty or so. Two, it is irrelevant. Having an SSD will tip the scales of any battles, but most commanders are retiscent to bring them into line because they are command ships, not necessarily ships of the line.

#45 7:17am 04/05/10

Also, stop disperaging Darth Vader. That means war.

#44 7:16am 04/05/10

It should be noted that a discussion regarding the relevant fairness of introducing four new SSD-sized ships is being debated by the Staff as well. TNO'ers might want to take that in to account, not that I'm saying the Staff even care enough to do anything, but in these days of extreme apathy the conversation has sparked numerous replies and questions. That in and of itself, the fact that the Staff have even managed to come together to discuss this non-spam related issue, should merit some reconsideration.

Personally, I think that certain parties should get together in their private and locked forum to discuss just why they're doing the things they are, how they are going to impact the community, and debate weather or not the things they are doing are fundamentally important or equate to little more then a pissing match.

#43 6:41am 04/05/10

Let me try again.

Darth Vader, one of two true Dark Lords of the Sith in existence at the time, the second most powerful being in the galaxy, utilized the Executor-class Star Destroyer [i]Executor[/i] as his personal command ship. Until Stackpole decided that Super Star Destroyers were cool and conjured up another one, it was the only vessel of its type in existence (okay, Lusankya probably wasn't the second Executor-type ever introduced, but chronologically it was built at the same time).

At the height of the canon Galactic Empire, an organization which controlled virtually all of the known galaxy, there was one Executor in existence, and it existed for the purposes of one of the most powerful individuals in history.

Quite frankly, Wes Vos isn't that important. Neither is Kach Thorton. I would venture to say not even Park Kraken, now-"emperor", deserves one.

When I first learned about Acheron, I didn't have a problem with it, because it existed to parallel the original [i]Executor[/i], to serve as a symbol, to function in the legacy of Darth Vader's own "Death Squadron" of warships. [i]That[/i] is cool. [i]That[/i] is the sort of thing I would be willing to overlook the "numbers" for.

I understand the value of the Executor as a symbol, not a military tool. If it were simply a military issue for me, I would fight it and blow it up, resolving the issue in a rather expedient fashion.

The problem is you started screwing with Darth Vader, and I won't let that go without a fight.

#42 5:37am 04/05/10

[QUOTE]The reason for the varying classes is to clear up discrepencies in the length and number of guns carried. And, by the way, who said you get to decide what the "original" SSD did? The "original" SSD is actually the one we're using, essentially. The Executory I was the 12,500 meter behemoth. It was the Executor II that was 8,000 meters. The Executor III is a return to the size of the Executor I.[/QUOTE]

You're right, I was a bit unclear there, nor should I have said that the original SSD. I should have said the original SSD stats used by TRF, which made it the 8 kilometer long ship with 250 Heavy turbolaser Batteries, and so forth: best examplified by the Union's [I]Midas[/I]. Yes, the original canon stats for the SSD have constantly been in a flux.

I am, however, wondering where all of these designated Marks of the SSD are coming from, and who designed them. I'm guessing this is a TRF source somewhere?

[QUOTE]I do take issue with your interpretation of this. The point of R&D in general is to let your enemies, and the community, know what ships you have and how powerful they are. If none of this matters, though, then the Empire will begin building one-man fighters only, since the number and type of weapons doesn't matter to a fight.

The point of this rule, I believe, was simply to say, "Hey, we're going to be a lot more free-form about things. We're not playing this like a table-top math-faction game anymore." That doesn't mean things like that don't matter.[/QUOTE]

I don't necessarily wholly disagree with your sentiment. As with every idea, the key is using it in moderation or in conjunction with another system that balances it out. That is why my R&Ds continue to use both numerical values and relative ratings in its technical explanations.

The problem with solely using numbers is that there is no one standard for the numbers upon which everyone agrees or follows. The problem with solely using relative ratings is that it ignores more fine/minor performance differences within certain craft, and particularly when they face ships of similar size and purposes.

[QUOTE]I don't believe anyone ever said it did. The one does not necessitate the other, though; while actions matter, so do relative ship strengths. Or are you going to argue that, typically, a frigate can beat an SSD?[/QUOTE]

As always, the common sense rule applies. So no, I don't think a guy in an armored space suit will outgun a Death Star.

That being said, an Alderannian War Frigate, two ISDs, a wing of starfighters, and some missile armed freighters beat the SSD [I]Luskanya[/I]. Essentially, I'm pointing that tactics by a much smaller group using less powerful warships can at least partially compensate for any amount of brute strength.

[QUOTE]I think that's a given. I don't think anyone in the Empire (currently - Drayson is gone) would godmod or uber-play an SSD. It's a big ship that can take a lot of punishment and can deal a lot of punishment. It's also really, really expensive. That doesn't mean it's not possible to defeat or (try this one) steal...

I certainly don't think anyone is going to use an SSD in a manner anywhere close to your example.[/QUOTE]

My example was a hyperbole, meant to demonstrate a general principle at the cost of specific realities. So no, I'm not implying that TNO is intentionally going to try and god-mod with the ship. The problem is that what people consider to be god-modding varies among the player, and certain items' use, like this SSD, are more likely to be interpretted by other players as godmodding.

[QUOTE]I believe I heard this argument somewhere before, when a certain individual was attempting to justify a ship called the Pegasus-class Star Destroyer. Except that time, it was Imperials arguing for the limitations. It got shot down then, and rightfully so. So it shouldn't even be a factor here.[/QUOTE]

There is a difference between having eight planets and having two star destroyers not even of Imperator size and the support of a larger organization, and having a set of warships in which one outguns the entire fleets of half of the factions here. I will also point out that the Pegasus SDs did match the ratios set forth by the rules in terms of meterage by planet.

That being said, my comparison using is inherently flawed because it troubles factoring in things like the time of a faction's existence, recent events, and so forth. But I think it does provide a decent, ableit admittedly rough, guideline.

[QUOTE]I don't think TNO is godmodding at this point. Take Sullust - you're facing one new SSD and a bunch of ships that have just recently come out of action at Coruscant. A lot of them are still damaged from that battle. The rest of TNO's fleets are being consolidated and sent where needed (something you wouldn't know about, since you can't see our private forums). We're actually currently discussing how to deal with the shortages.[/QUOTE]

Combined with fresh, undamaged ships from the Mid Rim on loan from Kraken, lest we forget. I think it's fairly safe to say that in the light of Cataclysm, many factions are and will be dealing with a shortage of ships, or being spread very thin.

[QUOTE]Just one problem. You're thinking like a kind person who actually gives a flip about his citizens or their culture.[/QUOTE]

I take that as a compliment.

[QUOTE]The training rooms in an SSD are generally holographic, simulators, and/or generic temporary structures. All four of these were built as sister ships, so as they're still fresh out of the docks I can't see such incorporation yet. Maybe with time, if it's efficient, but not as of yet.[/QUOTE]

That's great. Include in the R&D then, because that's not standard technology (the holographic part) if it's at least what I think it is, but I could be wrong.

[QUOTE]As far as unity or culture goes, you've got to be kidding. The unity of the Empire is fear. These ships are symbols of fear. We don't really care about individual cultures, or individuals at all for that matter. We're just as likely to raze a planet as placate it, especially if it doesn't have anything we need.[/QUOTE]

No? The Empire has changed some then since it was first formed, from what I know. Yes, fear has always had a part, but so has diplomacy, propoganda, and so forth. Or has INS worked for naught? But if that is the direction the Empire goes, so be it.

[QUOTE]Will these SSDs have their individual surprises? Of course. They were built for specific commanders, and they will each have individual...characteristics. Am I going to tell you what these are? Heck no. Not until it's time for it to come out in an RP. Are these characteristics going to make the ship more powerful? No. Different, perhaps, but not more powerful.[/QUOTE]

I am glad to hear that, and I do look forward to the characterization of the upcoming ships. Drayson's [I]Acheron[/I] is a fine example to live up to.

Telan, I do wonder if I hear a kindred spirit in you when you speak of civil debates between opponents; when you speek of mutual respect; when you speak about the experience of writing fine stories like one crafting fine wines.

[QUOTE]The Empire can field a massive force of armies and fleets because of its very nature and size - we control a thousand-thousand systems, home to trillions of beings. Our industry is geared towards military production and always has been. We are not a peace-like people. We thrive through conquest. [/QUOTE]

There can be no doubt that the Empire has thrived through warfare and that its victories are not few. Though I really hope that the Alliance doesn't have to instigate revolts over a thousand-thousand systems...I might be writing here past eternity. ;)

#41 5:33am 04/05/10

I will not air the Empire's dirty laundry here, but suffice it to say taking a Super Star Destroyer to an un-aligned and un-Imperial world would not happen, realistically. I am not abreast on the thread in question, but I will discuss the matter with my fellow commanders. The taking thereof was out of order and defies all military logic.

#40 5:18am 04/05/10

What are we arguing over again? Oh yeah SSDs.... Is this over the design itself or the number now? It seems the discussion has shifted.
as for the size.

12.8km per WEG. I was told many go by the old WEG stats so why stop now. you want to make it 8km thats fine too it does nothing to change the listed weapons, shielding, or armor. the stats stayed the same as the ship got bigger. Now canon has it as 19km and has a whole back story about how imperial intel made the ship seem smaller so the pencil pushers would accept the design and the ships would be built.

as far as guns go. As I explained the 2000 stat was cannons. The 250 stats were batteries. normally a Battery has 5 weapons. unless specified different. Like the batteries on Imperial star destroyers. As I read thru the starships of the galaxy I found something I had not really thought about before. The batteries on the SSD are Octuple Batteries. So 250 Batteries is the same thing as 2000 cannons. the weapons should no longer be an issue.

As far as the numbers. Ok the empire is in retreat. its splintered. Need to regroup. That fine. but what does that have to do with you guys having 4 SSDs. im fine with you guys having 4. 4 is better than 12. Its the use of these ships that needs to be discussed. Most of the ships built were kept hidden. I mean they baried the lusankya for petes sake. I admit when I first heard wes was bringing an SSD to sullust I called bull crap. why would the imperials send an SSD to investigate a small independantly run planet. it is not a major shipyad. not in the bilbringi, fondor, kuat, yaga minor scale anyway. they made no capitol ships for the empire. and with the empire defending them they made no ships for the rebels. But he had a good IC reason why he took the ship to sullust. We all agreed on it. I was told it was a vanilla SSD which have the stats more or less from above.

Why not let the imps have 4. we would know where they are at all times anyway. with Spys and people watching the sectors and planets they are stationed. Wes was in transit from a battle. we had no idea where his destination was and no time for any spies aboard to tell us. nor did we have anyone to report from coruscant that the ship left or in what direction.

give them the 4 SSDs with the cannon stats, put people on them and we will never have to worry about them sneaking up on us. It is too our advantage the ships being bigger. the stats are the same. bigger just means less misses.

I intend on posting my reaction to Wes' attack tomorrow unless I am absolutely forbade to do so. Im asuming the ship is exactly what Wes told me it was. as far as an series number thats no issue because I believe there was never any R&D done on any new class XSSD. I looked and really never found one and there was no link in the R and D to one.

I know I am new to TRF and its own special way of doing things. and I am learning every day something you guys have your own way of doing or thing you have changed IC over the years. Its alot to take in. I simple want to write my post and get on with the Sullust battle. the stats mean a whole lot of nothing. sure Wes put he fired 2000 weapons well he never said they came from one ship. he does have 6 other star destroyers and escorts.

Anyway Chastise me. turn me to jelly, what ever.... I just wanted to get this done and over. Imps take a hit on the SSDs and go with a canon WEG stats untill you guys can R and D one with a 500 word post. iIf there is one then lets see it. Everyone else let the have 4 big wedges. Just watch how they use them OOC and keep track of them IC.

the new guy.

#39 3:03am 04/05/10

If I may...

we have replaced counts of MGLTs and hull rating numbers with articulate arguments between learned colleagues. The bottom line, dear friends, is that we are arguing the same facts using different weapons.

I have always advocated, as my friends from the Sovereignty days of SWF can attest, that a minimalist victory is a pitiance - a well-fought defeat that is well written, involved, and thought out, is far preferable. Why? Because rping here is not about dice rolling and doing x damage to y arm on z floor. It is about writing excellent stories with excellent people.

We dare do all that men might do - he who dares more is less.

The Empire can field a massive force of armies and fleets because of its very nature and size - we control a thousand-thousand systems, home to trillions of beings. Our industry is geared towards military production and always has been. We are not a peace-like people. We thrive through conquest.

That said, our fleet is disheveled and many, many ships have been destroyed. Where first-line Star Destroyers should be in the field, now VSDs or outmoded battleships are serving. We are putting our pieces back together as best we can, but production won;t be up to snuff for a year at best. Catastrophe upon catastrophe has been heaped upon us, but we will live. Our major warships, for the most part, are damaged severely but not out of the fight.

I hope I have helped. I doubt it, but I hope I have.

#38 3:03am 04/05/10

Corise, I see several problems. I'll take them in order.

[quote]This is all well and good, but why does this necessitate a new class of SSD? A standard SSD itself serves the exact same function. What this new SSD seems to do to me is simply to raise the increments of what the original SSD already did.[/quote]
The reason for the varying classes is to clear up discrepencies in the length and number of guns carried. And, by the way, who said you get to decide what the "original" SSD did? The "original" SSD is actually the one we're using, essentially. The Executory I was the 12,500 meter behemoth. It was the Executor II that was 8,000 meters. The Executor III is a return to the size of the Executor I.

[quote]Gone are the massive SBD and hull values. Gone are the number of weapon blisters located on the aft ventral quarter. Gone are the MGLT values and number of hyperdrive backups.[/quote]
I do take issue with your interpretation of this. The point of R&D in general is to let your enemies, and the community, know what ships you have and how powerful they are. If none of this matters, though, then the Empire will begin building one-man fighters only, since the number and type of weapons doesn't matter to a fight.

The point of this rule, I believe, was simply to say, "Hey, we're going to be a lot more free-form about things. We're not playing this like a table-top math-faction game anymore." That doesn't mean things like that don't matter.

[quote]But the sheer fact that it has all of those weapons does not grant it immediate superiority to defeat anything at leisure: your character's actions are more important.[/quote]
I don't believe anyone ever said it did. The one does not necessitate the other, though; while actions matter, so do relative ship strengths. Or are you going to argue that, typically, a frigate can beat an SSD?

[quote]If the Confederation built a Death Star, jumped it to Vladet and vaporized the entire planet in one post, would it still be a challenge? There's a fine line between making a challenge and making something only theoritically possible to defeat. For it not to be considered a godmodded or uber ship, it's going to have be very, very carefully RPed.[/quote]
I think that's a given. I don't think anyone in the Empire (currently - Drayson is gone) would godmod or uber-play an SSD. It's a big ship that can take a lot of punishment and can deal a lot of punishment. It's also really, really expensive. That doesn't mean it's not possible to defeat or (try this one) steal...

I certainly don't think anyone is going to use an SSD in a manner anywhere close to your example.

[quote]Some old-fashioned and speculative Math faction action. Based on the above, we may be able to assume that every 10 planets produces 4 Imperial Star destroyers. TNO currently has ~110 planets according to the planet's list. So using ratios, we find that:

(110/10) * 4 = 44 Imperial Star Destroyers.

So TNO's fleet should theoritically be equivalent to 44 Imperial Star Destroyers and smaller accompanying craft.

Howeever, one of these Super Star Destroyers with the original stats stated by Kach has slightly over the firepower of 40 Imperial Mk II Star Destroyers (based on the number of turbolaser batteries). So essentially speaking, [b][u][i]one[/i][/u] [/b]of these SSDs would replace the nearly the entire Imperial Star Fleet based on a strict interpretation of the rules. Granted, this doesn't take into account the time that TNO has been around, but I would speculate that it also doesn't take into account other ships that TNO has built, and others that they have lost. Nor does such a model easily fit the idea of many multiple SSDs of this size being built.[/quote]
I believe I heard this argument somewhere before, when a certain individual was attempting to justify a ship called the [i]Pegasus[/i]-class Star Destroyer. Except that time, it was Imperials arguing for the limitations. It got shot down then, and rightfully so. So it shouldn't even be a factor here.

I don't think TNO is godmodding at this point. Take Sullust - you're facing one new SSD and a bunch of ships that have just recently come out of action at Coruscant. A lot of them are still damaged from that battle. The rest of TNO's fleets are being consolidated and sent where needed (something you wouldn't know about, since you can't see our private forums). We're actually currently discussing how to deal with the shortages.

And as I stated above, these ships were built long before Cataclysm, at the height of Imperial power. Call them the Empire's Folly, if you like - it fits the bill, perhaps.

[quote]Personally, for such a apparently important cultural symbol, I'd like to see some cultural development too. Like perhaps having an area of the ship that is somehow dedicated to the region it protects. It could be something as fine as art gallery/museum that displays art or artifacts from the region, or it could be much more practical, like having training areas on the ship that simulate special environments found in that region for troop training and simulations. Even better yet, it may incorporate some technological anomaly that is specific to the area (like using Yevetha Gravity bombs, for example).

Nor is this sort of idea new. GC's Star Defender [i]Coalition[/i] purposefully combines the various technologies of its peoples to not only show make it a technologically unique foe, but also a symbol of unity for the Coalition. The Confederation's [i]Revanche[/i] is perhaps the only ship that has crew from more than one region and houses a diplomatic complex for ambassadors and even the Contegorian Council has met. Even the Union's [i]Midas[/i] is known for housing their leadership meetings and as a base for...unique R&D experiments.[/quote]
Just one problem. You're thinking like a kind person who actually gives a flip about his citizens or their culture. The training rooms in an SSD are generally holographic, simulators, and/or generic temporary structures. All four of these were built as sister ships, so as they're still fresh out of the docks I can't see such incorporation yet. Maybe with time, if it's efficient, but not as of yet.

As far as unity or culture goes, you've got to be kidding. The unity of the Empire is fear. These ships are symbols of fear. We don't really care about individual cultures, or individuals at all for that matter. We're just as likely to raze a planet as placate it, especially if it doesn't have anything we need.

Will these SSDs have their individual surprises? Of course. They were built for specific commanders, and they will each have individual...characteristics. Am I going to tell you what these are? Heck no. Not until it's time for it to come out in an RP. Are these characteristics going to make the ship more powerful? No. Different, perhaps, but not more powerful.

@ Smarts: Were we talking Death Stars, I'd agree. We're not. We're talking about something substantially less powerful than a Death Star. And there were three Death Stars to take out - DS I, at Yavin, DS II at Endor, and the prototype at the Maw. There were hundreds of World Devastators, and several notable SSDs.

[quote]To the best of my knowledge, there are no command ships (read SSDs) in the queue, nor were any completed in the last year.[/quote]
Except these four.

#37 2:07am 04/05/10

For the most part, I agree with everything that Stellar said. But that's the ideal TRF to me, which doesn't represent reality, unfortunately. But that won't stop me from pursuing it...anyways...

Wes Vos said:
[QUOTE]This is how I intend to use the ship. It's a big ship with a lot of guns, and it's a symbol of terror.[/QUOTE]

This is all well and good, but why does this necessitate a new class of SSD? A standard SSD itself serves the exact same function. What this new SSD seems to do to me is simply to raise the increments of what the original SSD already did. Increments, like carrying capacity and fire power, which already are suppose to be in mostly general terms according to the rules:

From the FAQ:
[QUOTE]Gone are the massive SBD and hull values. Gone are the number of weapon blisters located on the aft ventral quarter. Gone are the MGLT values and number of hyperdrive backups. [/QUOTE]

Given this statement, I am somewhat concerned about the focus on the number of the weapons being explicitly focused on for this design, both in Kach's original post and in subsequent ones suggesting a concession in weapon numbers. This central focus seems to suggest that the numbers of the weapons should matter, when in fact, they should not, to either its user or its opponents. Yes, it's a big ship, and yes, it will have a lot of weapons. But the sheer fact that it has all of those weapons does not grant it immediate superiority to defeat anything at leisure: your character's actions are more important.

[QUOTE]...but shouldn't the enemies of the Empire simply see this as another challenge? How to take out the Empire's big weapons is a major part of the Star Wars storyline. Death Star, Death Star II, Sun Crusher, World Devastators, Darksaber, Iron Fist, Daala's SSD...need I continue?[/QUOTE]

If the Confederation built a Death Star, jumped it to Vladet and vaporized the entire planet in one post, would it still be a challenge? There's a fine line between making a challenge and making something only theoritically possible to defeat. For it not to be considered a godmodded or uber ship, it's going to have be very, very carefully RPed.

As far as the logistical side of this debate goes....

From the FAQ:
[QUOTE]If your group owns ten planets, and has thus far had all its stories and expansion themed around the military, then you could have a sizable fleet and NPC army at your command (and by sizable we mean maybe three or four Star Destroyers and accompanying craft. See below for more info on fleet sizes). [/QUOTE]

Some old-fashioned and speculative Math faction action. Based on the above, we may be able to assume that every 10 planets produces 4 Imperial Star destroyers. TNO currently has ~110 planets according to the planet's list. So using ratios, we find that:

(110/10) * 4 = 44 Imperial Star Destroyers.

So TNO's fleet should theoritically be equivalent to 44 Imperial Star Destroyers and smaller accompanying craft.

Howeever, one of these Super Star Destroyers with the original stats stated by Kach has slightly over the firepower of 40 Imperial Mk II Star Destroyers (based on the number of turbolaser batteries). So essentially speaking, [B][U][I]one[/I][/U] [/B] of these SSDs would replace the nearly the entire Imperial Star Fleet based on a strict interpretation of the rules. Granted, this doesn't take into account the time that TNO has been around, but I would speculate that it also doesn't take into account other ships that TNO has built, and others that they have lost. Nor does such a model easily fit the idea of many multiple SSDs of this size being built.

Personally, for such a apparently important cultural symbol, I'd like to see some cultural development too. Like perhaps having an area of the ship that is somehow dedicated to the region it protects. It could be something as fine as art gallery/museum that displays art or artifacts from the region, or it could be much more practical, like having training areas on the ship that simulate special environments found in that region for troop training and simulations. Even better yet, it may incorporate some technological anomaly that is specific to the area (like using Yevetha Gravity bombs, for example).

Nor is this sort of idea new. GC's Star Defender [I]Coalition[/I] purposefully combines the various technologies of its peoples to not only show make it a technologically unique foe, but also a symbol of unity for the Coalition. The Confederation's [I]Revanche[/I] is perhaps the only ship that has crew from more than one region and houses a diplomatic complex for ambassadors and even the Contegorian Council has met. Even the Union's [I]Midas[/I] is known for housing their leadership meetings and as a base for...unique R&D experiments.

#36 1:38am 04/05/10

[quote]How to take out the Empire's big weapons is a major part of the Star Wars storyline. Death Star, Death Star II, Sun Crusher, World Devastators, Darksaber, Iron Fist, Daala's SSD[/quote]

And how meaningful would the destruction of the Death Star have been if there had been three others around the corner waiting to finish what it couldn't?

And on a personal note: Darksaber doesn't count; it didn't work anyway. Suckiest plot in history.

<<<123456>>>