General Fleet Upgrade IV
The General Fleet Upgrade IV was originally developed by Borderland Protectorate Scientists under the governance of Kach Thorton early in his term but offered to the remainder of the Imperial fleet as an optional upgrade package. The General Fleet Upgrade IV since then has become almost universal across the Imperial Fleet.Laser Communications Module
Under heavy jamming, fleet communication and therefore cohesion can be completely lost, resulting in an almost certain defeat to better organized foes. Even allied jamming, which ruins enemy as well as friendly jamming, can be disastrous, as it reduces fleet engagements to nothing but uncoordinated brawls, leaving victory to nothing but luck and incurring heavy losses in the process.
To ensure the communication of Imperial forces even within the thickest jamming the Imperial Laser Communications Module (ILCM) was developed. A basic application of laser technology, the ILCM uses Infrared Lasers to provide reliable line-of sight communication between ships.
Due to this item's basic simplicity it can be massed produced on any planet with basic optical manufacturing facilities. Therefore it is expected that the fleet will be fully equipped with these items in a matter of weeks.
Two Layer particle shields
Once installed, it allows commanders to have the option of deploying their shields in a manner that is resistant to missile strikes. For two-layer particle shields the shield projectors project two layers of shielding. The first layer of particle shields is granted only 1/5th their usual power allotment. The second layer of particle shields, which receives 3/5ths the usual allotment of power (leaving dual-layer particle shields 20% weaker overall than single layer), is the layer of shields that enemy missiles will detonate against, believing they’ve hit the hull. Ray shields are projected millimeters beneath the lower particle shields.
Due to the large costs of equipping this to every ship in the Imperial fleet, high command has decided that this modification will only be placed on ships in the class of Heavy Cruiser or larger.
Strategic Sensor Suite
To support her in her mission of engaging and defeating all manners and sorts of enemy ships and weapons, Imperial ships will be upgraded with the new Strategic Sensor Suite, an upgraded version of the Tactical Sensor Suite pioneered on the Tiburon CPE-F and Cayman CPE-C vessels. This expanded package gives the ship far greater capabilities when it comes to detection and engagement of enemies, including stealthed vessels, which have become far more common across that galaxy in recent times.
The core of the package is a trio of sensors originally designed for the mapping and exploration of dangerous galactic phenomena including asteroid fields, black hole clusters, electrically charged Nebulas, and Supernova. Used to detect, measure and map forms of energy usually ignored by standard sensor packages, in a military use, however, the system makes a potent stealth detection system. Designed to detect anomalies in the interaction of the Zero Point, Magnetic and Ion fields and matter, the core of the strategic sensor suite can detect and point out these anomalies, identifying stealthed threats and giving ships ample time to react to their unexpected company.
Due to the large costs of equipping this to every ship in the Imperial fleet, high command has decided that this modification will only be placed on ships in the class of Heavy Cruiser or larger.
(see thread for further details on this item, particularly at the bottom)
Datalink
Another software upgrade. To provide gunnery crews with the best sensory and targeting information available Imperial ships will be upgraded with a that transfers sensor data between all capital ships and fighters in the immediate vicinity. Due to the highly sensitive nature of these transmissions, they are encoded in a cipher within a code based on the sums of 200 digit prime numbers, an encryption so complex Imperial Intelligence confidently claims no existing computer can solve it before the big crunch and the end of the universe. By spreading the data collected by an entire fleet in this manner, gun crews have better targeting data, fighter pilots have the advantage of data from more powerful capital ship sensors, and commanders have a better idea of the situation on the battlefield.
Tech Thread: http://therebelfaction.com/forums/showthread.php?p=166528#post166528
Comments
#14 7:58pm 27/01/09
I explicitly wrote that 1/5 of the particle shield's standard energy goes to the upper layer, while 4/5 goes to the lower. Making them weaker to compensate for the dual layers seems fair enought. I've edited the upper post. Two layer particle shields are now 20% weaker than single layer particle shields.
#13 7:46pm 27/01/09
Again I'm going to ignore the science on how this all works, and instead argue TRF precedent. The precedent for R&Ds that upgrade ships usually results in some downside.
Example:
Elite Missile Defence System. All ships with it have their hull reduced by 10%.
Defender Ion Shields: Reduces shields on all ships equipped with them (15% off ray shields, 35% of particle shields).
So what's the downside to your ships for equipping them with mini gravity wells used for communications? That's a lot of energy being used up, needs to come from somewhere. What's the downside to your ships for being equipped with extra particle shields?
EDIT: I read your post above mine. Extra particle shields aren't necessarily exotic tech, but you need to do more than just put more shield projectors out, you need extra energy too.
#12 7:42pm 27/01/09
[QUOTE=Corise Lucerne]
Thus, if it's not on the hull, what are the particle shields strengthening? The vacuum and any chance particles that happen to be in the immediate area around the ship?[/QUOTE]
Obviously. I was not explicit enough in my explanation for this system. Apologies. The shields would not be projected on or near the hull but above them. The lower layer would be in the standard position while the first layer would be a distance above them equal to the distance between a standard shield and a vessel's hull. They will not strengthen the hull. The layering will fool missiles into detonating prematurely, preventing them from damaging the ship.
[QUOTE]
As per the idea of energy[ray] shields being used to absorb damage, I'm rather curious as to how that would work? Ray shields work against turbolasers, laser cannons, and perhaps energy torpedoes, but they do not absorb/protect against other radiation. This means that energy shields don't protect against explosives, or rather the thermal damage from a proton or concussion missile which hits it. [/QUOTE]
My understanding is that the energy of an explosion could be absorbed but if this is wrong that's fine. I think I got the impression from one of Heir's R&Ds that had some sort of missile detonation field and the shields projected below it. I won't RP it as absorbing any damage.
[QUOTE]Just a general comment/idea applicable to all factions, but perhaps there need to be tradeoffs for all of these special systems. Realistically, one does not get everything for nothing, and a higher price is not a remotely good excuse especially if the project is going to be applied to nearly all the vessels of an entire faction. This should be some performance tradeoff. I would like to suggest reliability issues for things like the sensors mentioned here.[/QUOTE]
You know people have been playing with high tech for a long time. GC has had it's graviton scanners and whatnot, BDE has always been high tech, and you've posted a number of neat little do-dads too. TNO has not been so active in posting lots of tech. We've got a few things - such as Multi-track and Reactive shields, but we've never bothered to create a stealth sensor or a lot of high tech stuff. Now I got to create a sensor that could possibly (gasp) detect your little fighters and all of a sudden you're talking about performance trade offs?
Funny.
This would not be our first general fleet upgrade (I know of one for certain, and I believe there was a second.), and definitely not the biggest. It's very doable. Look at this: [url]http://www.therebelfaction.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6026[/url]. That's the first general fleet upgrade, which involved giving nearly every star destroyer in the fleet a total overhaul. GFU IV would be nowhere near that level of expensive or difficulty. These would just go on when a ship's in for maintenance.
These are very basic things, not a complete overhaul of every star destroyer's engines or a reactor upgrade for every ship in the fleet. We already equip every ship with sensors. This would just be a slightly upgraded package. A datalink is a basic software upgrade that simply transmits data between ships so all vessels have access to other ship's sensor and targeting data. Right now the US military uses these between tanks and F-15 fighters. Why can't the Empire have one too? The lasers are very simple devices that can be constructed on any planet with basic optical facilities. The only thing iffy here when it comes to simplicity is the particle shields, which may actually require a hardware upgrade now that I think about it, but every ship has particle shields - it's not like they're some exotic tech. It would take at most a second set of projectors (not generators, projectors) for every ship, a minor upgrade.
Think realistically about the scale of these upgrades and realize they're not very huge.
[QUOTE]Otherwise, there is going to be essentially an arms race between special systems, which means lots of (pseudo)-science based R&Ds. And frankly, that will lead to more debates, arguments, etc. Something to think about.
[/QUOTE]
The last arms race I recall was between you and Wes.
#11 7:14pm 27/01/09
So many things to say...about everything....
Like how much room is left in Imp ships are four upgrades? :P
But seriously...
[QUOTE]Two Layer particle shields
For two-layer particle shields the shield projectors project two layers of shielding. The first layer of particle shields is granted only 1/5th their usual power allotment. The second layer of particle shields, which receives the remaining allotment of power, is the layer of shields that enemy missiles will detonate against, believing they’ve hit the hull. Ray shields are projected millimeters beneath the particle shields. This means that while approaching missiles will be detonated by the particle shields, the energy unleashed by the warhead will be dispersed into the ray shield, lessening the impact to the particle shields. The distance between these two layers is controlled by vessel’s Multi-track shielding so that it can be adjusted for maximum effectiveness. [/QUOTE]
Err...how does this work? The principle seems to be the same as used on the Efreeti Battlecruiser, which is to say that of spaced armor. But there are some issues here, not totally insurmontable, which don't quite add up, I think.
This second layer of particle shields, where is it? If it's right at the hull where particle shields normally are, this isn't providing any extra protection against missiles (except for perhaps deep penetrating missiles) than normal particle shields do.
If this shield is suppose to be off the hull, how does it work?
[QUOTE]"These shields[particle shields] greatly enhance a ship's hull integrity by using energy charges to strengthen the molecular bonds of the hull plating."[/QUOTE] (EGWT pg. 82).
Thus, if it's not on the hull, what are the particle shields strengthening? The vacuum and any chance particles that happen to be in the immediate area around the ship?
As per the idea of energy[ray] shields being used to absorb damage, I'm rather curious as to how that would work? Ray shields work against turbolasers, laser cannons, and perhaps energy torpedoes, but they do not absorb/protect against other radiation. This means that energy shields don't protect against explosives, or rather the thermal damage from a proton or concussion missile which hits it. Other types of energy and radiation are not blocked by ray shields either, like ion energy notably.
Just a general comment/idea applicable to all factions, but perhaps there need to be tradeoffs for all of these special systems. Realistically, one does not get everything for nothing, and a higher price is not a remotely good excuse especially if the project is going to be applied to nearly all the vessels of an entire faction. This should be some performance tradeoff. I would like to suggest reliability issues for things like the sensors mentioned here.
Otherwise, there is going to be essentially an arms race between special systems, which means lots of (pseudo)-science based R&Ds. And frankly, that will lead to more debates, arguments, etc. Something to think about.
#10 6:18pm 27/01/09
I purposely worded my complaint so that I didn't complain about the science of it, and more the quality/quantity of it. But that's cause I hate science so don't understand half of what they are saying anyway.
#9 2:35pm 27/01/09
Not to step on you science geeks toes or anything but you're both making the same assumption; which is that "the Star Wars galaxy" uses the same laws of physics observed in our universe.
"A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away..." is the only canon evidence we have that the fantasy realm of Star Wars (in the imagination of George Lucas) even exists in our universe.
So, arguements that employ logic along the lines of Moore's Law, or any other theory which perscribes set rules of advancement, technological, sociological, evolutionary or otherwise are moot. We have had this debate a thousand times before, the Staff resolving that while you are welcome to cite whatever real-life paradigms you want to support your point of view, [I]only[/I] the material you produce In Character carries any weight what-so-ever!
There-for, write whatever you want in your R&D... post whatever arguements you want to counter that written material... you're welcome to it and this is the purpose of the R&D forum, however; the only functional parameters of merit are those you assign In Character as are the arguments of others.
Debate as you will, but understand that the only limits placed on your imagination, aside from the few rules we have for R&D work, are those you either overlook or omit In Character, or the flaws exploited by your adversaries In Character.
We write in a universe where FTL travel is not a theory, it is a constant. Where the ability to manipulate matter with your mind is not only plausible, it is possible...
#8 2:04pm 27/01/09
[QUOTE=Smarts]Diffusion: No.
You see, in a "vacuum", though particles are present, individual atoms may be separated by dozens (even hundreds) of kilometers. You're telling me you can monitor the position and motion of every atomic particle of matter within normal sensor range? Dosen't that violate the Heizenburg Uncertainty Principle, for one (common sense, for two)?[/QUOTE]
It's actually one Hydrogen atom every cubic centimeter plus change, not hundreds of kilometers between atoms. I know because I once did extensive reading on Bussard Ramjets, which would be impossible with the concentrations of ions you're talking about (as is, they are just considered highly impracticable to build at the moment). The Heizenburg Uncertainty principle says I can measure either the velocity or position of an atom, does it not? So by measuring only position then a sensor can watch how the scattering of ions changes in concentrations to detect a cloaked ship.
[QUOTE]Magnetic fields: umm . . . No.
Does the phrase "square of the distance between" mean anything to you? When observing physical matter, one eventually reaches a value (mass) so small that observation no longer becomes reliable (see: Diffusion comment above), electromagnetic fields dissipate as the distance from their source increases, meaning at some point, they become "unobservable". Add to the fact that there would be dozens (even hundreds) of different electromagnetic fields all interacting with each other, all originating from dynamic sources, and it would be very difficult to pinpoint (or even get a general idea of the location of) a disruption or augmentation to those fields, if your sensors could even detect with certainty that the fields were being interacted with by a nearby yet unobserved craft. Basically what I'm saying is: the natural fluctuations that would be occurring on this minuscule level of observation would make any effort at using this form of detection totally unfeasible; of course I also mean "No".[/QUOTE]
Your point about squares of distances and the dissipation of fields is true but what about in planetary or solar system orbits? We can detect the sun's magnetic field at the far edges of the solar system, and we can detect planet's and moon's magnetic fields in orbit above them. In addition, no matter where you are in space a ship's magnetic field (when it is nearby) won't dissipate. Remember that experiment in sixth grade with a magnet about an inch in diameter creating a six-inch field of iron shavings? Scale that up to a massive battleship or even small corvette’s power system, and you get an idea about the power of a ship’s field. It would stand out significantly against any form of background magnetic energy.
[QUOTE]Zero Point energy: I'm going with: nO?
If the nature of zero point energy is unknown, and it "pops" into and out of our universe in an unknown fashion, then how can you tell when its unknown properties are being influenced by an outside source? Isn't that just . . . crazy talk?[/QUOTE]
ZPE is energy, therefore it is affected by other sorts of energy due to the laws of common sense. We don’t know it’s properties now, but certainly in the Star Wars galaxy they’re at least somewhat more familiar with it. The fashion it pops into our universe is unknown, but not random. It appears very consistently (even if we’re not exactly sure where it came from) in an extremely consistent (in terms of density) field.
[QUOTE]And since I'm here, I might as well mention my problems with this Gravpulse Communications Module. Basically: see EM fields. Square of the distance between, and all of that. A ship can read the gravitational presence of a planet, or a moon, or a star, or a commet, or a Death Star (I would assume). But you want us to believe that, without modification, a [i]starfighter[/i] can pick up on a gravitational distortion that starts out as minuscule (since the generating device has no apparent power drain), and then "shrinks" according to a squared-inverse relationship with the distance between the transmitter and receiver? Oh, and what about this Zero Point energy stuff? If there are random particles popping in and out of existence, then there will be random gravitational "interference" popping in and out of existence; granted, that interference would be unbelievably small, but so would be your gravity "signal" by the time it reached the receivers.[/QUOTE]
Fair enough, I’ve removed this. Good points.
[QUOTE]Now I'm not saying this stuff wouldn't work at all (well, maybe I am), I'm just saying it wouldn't work well. As in: you might know a stealth ship was out there somewhere, but you would find that out anyway . . . for instance, when they shot at you, which "knowing" they're out there won't prevent. [/QUOTE]
You raise good points about the Gravpulse module but the sensors are perfectly feasible. They would (reasonably) accurately pinpoint the location of a cloaked craft whether it had fired on an Imperial Vessel or not.
[QUOTE]And wouldn't your Datalink system suffer from enough latency to make it meaningless? Especially if it has to encrypt/decrypt an "unbreakable" cipher and then (possibly) feed it through a magical gravity dance machine . . . but again: whatever.[/QUOTE]
Obviously you’ve never used the program Truecrypt. It uses codes that the military and CIA are authorized to use on top secret information, but I notice no lag when I use it to decrypt data.
You also forget that computers in the star wars universe have been under the effect of Moore’s law for how many more thousands of years with us?
#7 9:42am 27/01/09
See, that's what happens when you think; bad things do.
#6 9:40am 27/01/09
I thought Star Wars was Space Opera . . . like Scientology.
#5 9:34am 27/01/09
Just wanted to say; Hi, welcome to Science [I]Fiction[/I] (with emphasis on the latter)
#4 7:06am 27/01/09
Diffusion: No.
You see, in a "vacuum", though particles are present, individual atoms may be separated by dozens (even hundreds) of kilometers. You're telling me you can monitor the position and motion of every atomic particle of matter within normal sensor range? Dosen't that violate the Heizenburg Uncertainty Principle, for one (common sense, for two)?
Magnetic fields: umm . . . No.
Does the phrase "square of the distance between" mean anything to you? When observing physical matter, one eventually reaches a value (mass) so small that observation no longer becomes reliable (see: Diffusion comment above), electromagnetic fields dissipate as the distance from their source increases, meaning at some point, they become "unobservable". Add to the fact that there would be dozens (even hundreds) of different electromagnetic fields all interacting with each other, all originating from dynamic sources, and it would be very difficult to pinpoint (or even get a general idea of the location of) a disruption or augmentation to those fields, if your sensors could even detect with certainty that the fields were being interacted with by a nearby yet unobserved craft. Basically what I'm saying is: the natural fluctuations that would be occurring on this minuscule level of observation would make any effort at using this form of detection totally unfeasible; of course I also mean "No".
Zero Point energy: I'm going with: nO?
If the nature of zero point energy is unknown, and it "pops" into and out of our universe in an unknown fashion, then how can you tell when its unknown properties are being influenced by an outside source? Isn't that just . . . crazy talk?
And since I'm here, I might as well mention my problems with this Gravpulse Communications Module. Basically: see EM fields. Square of the distance between, and all of that. A ship can read the gravitational presence of a planet, or a moon, or a star, or a commet, or a Death Star (I would assume). But you want us to believe that, without modification, a [i]starfighter[/i] can pick up on a gravitational distortion that starts out as minuscule (since the generating device has no apparent power drain), and then "shrinks" according to a squared-inverse relationship with the distance between the transmitter and receiver? Oh, and what about this Zero Point energy stuff? If there are random particles popping in and out of existence, then there will be random gravitational "interference" popping in and out of existence; granted, that interference would be unbelievably small, but so would be your gravity "signal" by the time it reached the receivers.
Of course, if all of your formations remain inside half a kilometer (for instance) of the transmitting ship . . . but you don't really want to pull a move from the Empire Strikes Back and run your Star Destroyers into each other, do you? I mean, if you're that close, just use hand signals (or flashlights).
Now I'm not saying this stuff wouldn't work at all (well, maybe I am), I'm just saying it wouldn't work well. As in: you might know a stealth ship was out there somewhere, but you would find that out anyway . . . for instance, when they shot at you, which "knowing" they're out there won't prevent.
And we ("we" because at least one other individual has expressed to me his confusion upon reading "Two Layer particle shields") could go on to asking how new software changes the physical properties of particle shield projectors, but whatever.
And wouldn't your Datalink system suffer from enough latency to make it meaningless? Especially if it has to encrypt/decrypt an "unbreakable" cipher and then (possibly) feed it through a magical gravity dance machine . . . but again: whatever.
Window dressing, indeed.
#3 5:47am 27/01/09
[QUOTE]To support her in her mission of engaging and defeating all manners and sorts of enemy ships and weapons, Imperial ships will be upgraded with the new Strategic Sensor Suite, an upgraded version of the Tactical Sensor Suite pioneered on the Tiburon CPE-F and Cayman CPE-C vessels. This expanded package gives the ship far greater capabilities when it comes to detection and engagement of enemies, including stealthed vessels, which have become far more common across that galaxy in recent times.
The core of the package is a trio of sensors originally designed for the mapping and exploration of dangerous galactic phenomena including asteroid fields, black hole clusters, electrically charged Nebulas, and Supernova. Used to detect, measure and map forms of energy usually ignored by standard sensor packages, in a military use, however, the system makes a potent stealth detection system. Designed to detect anomalies in the interaction of the Zero Point, Magnetic and Ion fields and matter, the core of the strategic sensor suite can detect and point out these anomalies, identifying stealthed threats and giving ships ample time to react to their unexpected company.[/QUOTE]
The core of the Strategic Sensor Suite is composed of three sensors: An Ion field detector, a Zero point field detector, and a magnetic field detector. All three, as explained below, are potent stealth detection devices.
Due to particle matter's natural properties of
[URL=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion]Diffusion[/URL] what is commonly referred to as "vacuum" is actually filled with a thin but detectable scattering of Ions and Atoms. Because of diffusion, this scattering of particle matter is of a consistent density and flows in a particular way as long as it is uninterrupted. When a physical object such as a ship flows through the ionic fields of space the diffusion of the field is affected, causing a very clear disruption in the Ionic field around the craft. Though normal sensors cannot directly detect a stealthed ship, by using a specialty sensor that monitors the ionic field around a vessel changes in the diffusion of Ions that are caused by a ship can be observed, giving warning of a stealthed vessel's presence.
The Magnetic Component of the Strategic Sensor Suite works in the same manner but observes the Magnetic fields around a vessel. Every bit of space in the galaxy is permeated by magnetic fields projected by stars, celestial objects such as planets, high-power electronics equipment and even large ships. This magnetic energy naturally distributes itself in well-understood patterns. When a cloaked ship is present then this natural pattern is disrupted by the magnetic field and/or the physical presence of the vessel. This disruption can be observed by a sensor that depicts a 3-D picture of the magnetic field around the craft, which then compares the actual distribution of magnetic energy in the area to how it should be distributed according to the laws of quantum physics. The discrepancy a cloaked vessel causes alerts sensor crews to a vessel's presence.
The last new core sensor in the Strategic Sensor Suite is one that observes the Zero point field around the craft. Though the exact nature of the energy is unknown, Zero Point energy - also known as vacuum energy - consists of continuous energy releases that take place even in vacuum as matching pairs of particles and antiparticles spontaneously enter this universe and exit in infinitesimal antimatter reactions. A ship, due to it's magnetic and gravitational fields affects the flow of these particles around it even when under a cloaking device. Even with some sort of gravity-neutralizer, such as the one used by Imperial SS units, the zero point energy around a craft is still affected. By monitoring the flow of zero point energy in the space around the sensor suite and comparing the flow of the energy to conventional sensor readings anomalies created by stealth vessels can be detected.
#2 5:12am 27/01/09
Thanks Jan. I can write the sensor thing out. I've got very specific ideas behind it that I simply didn't bother to expand upon.
#1 4:47am 27/01/09
Haven't we been over this before? Or even if it didn't involve you specifically, this conversation has been had before. That being that if you want a fucking sensor that detects stealth ships, put more than 188 words together to explain it. Yes GC has our gravitron. Yes we put it on all/most of our R&Ds. But it doesn't apply to old R&Ds or non-R&Ded ships (last i checked, could be wrong, maybe we RP'd or R&D'd somewhere putting it on everything and i just forgot about it). But we also did a SPECIFIC R&D, just for the purpose of getting said sensor. And it wasn't a 188 word R&D, it was a long, well thought out R&D. You want to be able to detect stealthed + cloaked ships? That's cool. But put some fucking effort into it.
tl;dr
I call shenanigans. No effort being put in to accomplish a specific goal (plus other goals) that other factions have actually had to put real effort into.
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