The Rebel Faction

First of all, I request taht only staff members post in this thread.

Baptism of Fire (OOC)
This thread is here to address to resolve agruments within this thread, which is getting mucked up in technicalties. Third person opinions about relevant topics in this thread are welcome. I will start by responding to Kach's latest PM.

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First of all, I'm going to make a general comment on your speeds and such: G-Canon. Go look at that space battle in epsisode III or one, and tell me if they're all moving at 4000 meters a second (One MPEG accordign to the NIF database). No, they're not.

I'm impressed that you're familar with the NIF database (I rped there). But it is correct; ships orbiting a planet move around at that speed because of gravity. You're not also taking into account that the camera is most likely moving in tandem with the ships so we can actually see them. This is also discussed in the link below.

No, because ships are moving in different directions and some are clearly moving in opposite directions. Orbits don't work like taht.

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That is the atmospheric range, not the space range, as you'll discover if you'd look closer. ANd another thing you'd discover is that on TRF, for some reason weapons have a longer atmospheric than space range, such that a weapon with a two kilometer range can bombard a planet (There's several R&Ds like that).

Show me.

http://www.therebelfaction.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7199 for one

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Second of all, --> "The range of the system is a fifty kilometer sphere – which is the maximum range of a heavy turbolaser." That is taken from Telans Conquor-class Star Destroyer R&D, and Telan has been her twice as long as you and me put together, and more importantly, It is a TRF source, which trumps any non-TRF range references.

While Telan and I were rping in "Tidings of War", we had a similar discussion. Then, Telan said that Imperial turbolasers really don't have any specific range. In any case, I fail to see how a TRF source trumps the others, as the other one is far more widespread and sponsored by George Lucas. As it is, we have just recently established that there is no standard turbolaser range at TRF. Thus, I suggest we have a moderator or moderators make an arbitiary decision on how this will be resolved.

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Also, your men woudn't just begin charging away as the Vendettas weapons deployed, though they would probably become more alert since they wouldn't know what's going on. But they wouldn't start running till all the weapons had deployed.

Why? We have ships directly there scanning your vessels. There is no reason for us not to charge away as we see weapons pop up.

I belive I said it took seven seconds to deploy. That's seven seconds they don't know what's going on.

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And as I mentinoed in a thread, a single Vendetta is worth at least six havens, with one per ship I can easily see them being picked off in just twelve seconds, let alone thirty. And plus, if you want to turn around too...

The Turning around part is true, though that would only add a few seconds which in turn is negated by us moving out already because of being forewarned by the ships scanning your vessel.

I'm going to point out that Havens have higher than normal shields for the size and that it is next to impossible for all of the weapons onboard a single ship to be able to target a single vessel that size.

And a VEndettas got enough weapons to take on a star destroyer. A haven's no problem.

Here it is specifically:
6 Heavy Turbolasers
58 Medium Turbolasers
20 Proton Torpedo Launchers
20 Medium Ion Cannons

The turbolasers are mounted half on each side of the hull, as are teh proton torpedo launcheres. The ion cannons are mounted on the top and bottom of the hull along the centerline, so they can all fire at any target to either side. I say thath's plenty to take down a haven.

Now the Deathsabers...

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They are in close combat with the Starvipers. I think we agree on that.

No, we don't. As I stated in the previous PM, I said they fled or they are escorting my ships as written within my post.

They are, but because of that they're in combat above your havens (single remaining one at the end).

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First: What the hell is a defensive value? Is taht some sort of bargan shopper discount card for black market weapon purchases. A Starviper has about the same shields as a Deathsaber, though it has a more powerful laser armament.

For the defensive value, I added up their shield and hull ratings. Those of the StarViper are at 50 SBD shields and 35 RU hull, as found in the NIF database; the link is
here. You'll have to scroll down to find it.

Thus, the defensive value for a StarViper is 85 while that of a Deathsaber is 150.

Okay. Thank you.

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And far more importatnly in a dogfight, it is more ;manoverable, about the level of a TIE interceptor, and far more than a deathsaber.

Your vessel is 14 DPF higher, which isn't much, considering that the ratings vary for starfighters from 60 DPF to 175 DPF.

Starvipers are said to be as manoverable as TIE interceptors. Taht's 125 DPF.

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There is no such thing as a 100% absorbant paint. THere will always be some glare, and they could follow taht and fire at it.

Actually, it's been around at TRF for quite a while. Here's an example.
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Or, they could hit it as it was silhuetted in front of a ship or the planet itself.

That is possible, but since they're moving away, I doubt you'll be able to hit it to the point of overwhelming shields, much less destruction.

Starvipers are faster, no problem.

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But what they are actually doing is tracking the ships drive trails. You can't hide those at short range- the Vendettas powerful sensors can detect them as they form. At long range it might look like a hapless gas cloud, (You know how things that are far away look like they're going slower even if they're not) but up close they can simply watch the ion streams form and fire at the sources.

I do not see anywhere within the Vendetta R&D references to abnormally powerful sensors with which to detect that. Even if they did, that doesn't explain why they can bypass the Vanish 2 sensor mask.

Vendettas are captial ships, and they have far more powerful sensor suits than fighters or smaller cruisers because they're simply bigger, not special.

And we're not bypassing the sensor mask. We're detecting the drivetrails your ships leave behind. We can detect that. It's kind of hard not to notice when an ion cloud just appears out of nowhere.

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And since they're more manoverable, the Starvipers can simply roll out of the way when one's on their tail.

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You, Corise, are obviously not a pilot. I doubt you have ever even sat in a planes cockpit while in flight, and if you have, it wasn't a nimble little aerobatic plane or something of the like. I however, am and have and understand how dogfighting works. Go buy Microsoft Combat Flight Simulator three, the best simulator i've seen yet, and fly around for four or five years and then get back to me with what you've learned. Until then don't tell me anything about dogfighting or fighter combat.

Actually, I have. I flew a Beechcraft with an instructor at EAA; and yes, I have played with flight simulators, notably XvT. Also, atmospheric flight is much different from space flight because of the existence of gravity within an atmosphere, which in turn dictates maneuvers.

Gravity exhists outside an atmosphere too, you just go into orbit when you hit orbital velocity and your are continuously falling, which gives you the feeling of weightlessness. It's still there, you just don't feel it at orbtal velocity.

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The Starflares: your missiles are at a dead standstill when they come out of hyperspace. They also must accelerate. And we could always just... hmm, track them with regular sensors. ISn't that origional? ANd your missiles are 6 km away, so don't try to do your jammer crap, which you stated has a 50 meter range.

How does that argument nullify the jammer? It also doesn't nullify the speed argument presented previously.

I meant to say meter, not kilometer, after the 50, and I've changed the quote above.

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BTW, a while ago you wanted a range on my shadow bombs and it slipped my mind. But I've remembered you asked recently, and their range is about 5km alone, though if guided by a tractor beam from the launcher or another ship they can go up to 35kms, the max range of a standard heavy tractor beam.

Thanks. I know that the heavy tractor beam range listed is a WEG stat. How can you use contradicting sources?

That didn't make any sense. But we're here to talk Genon, not shadow bombs. I just did something I've been meaning to do by telling you tath.

No, because ships are moving in different directions and some are clearly moving in opposite directions. Orbits don't work like taht.

You have to remember though, that you're viewing it in relative visual terms. It's important to note that in that example, they are within a gravity field and thus could well be using repulsorlifts, thus I'm not sure if that's an accurate example with which to work with. The link provided shows what Dr. Curtis Saxon figured out that figure via analyzing the Battle of Endor.

For a RL example about speeds in space, NASA states that an Apollo capsule orbiting the Earth at 22,000 miles, the spacecraft itself is moving at 6,900 miles per hour. Thus, moving at 400 m/s^2 is not overly impossible.

Maybe I'm blind, or really tired, but I missed the section regarding the atmospheric bombardment part.

I belive I said it took seven seconds to deploy. That's seven seconds they don't know what's going on.

I'm not getting that. The shuttles and their escorting Deathsabers were scanning (both visually and with sensors) the ships as the weapons were being deployed. As well, the Havens were recieving that feed so we would notice that.

6 Heavy Turbolasers
58 Medium Turbolasers
20 Proton Torpedo Launchers
20 Medium Ion Cannons

The turbolasers are mounted half on each side of the hull, as are teh proton torpedo launcheres. The ion cannons are mounted on the top and bottom of the hull along the centerline, so they can all fire at any target to either side. I say thath's plenty to take down a haven.

I suppose that depends on the Star Destroyer. Older ones yes, but the ISD MK II or the Nebula-class Star Destroyer have more and heavier weapons than that. So what I'm hearing then, is that roughly 3 Heavy Turbolasers, 29 Turbolasers, 10 PTLs could target a single Haven then?

I think that it is possible to destroy a Haven with that, but that depends on how much time the Havens are in firing range. I do not believe that given the current estimates of time that one could target and fire upon the vessels with enough firepower to destroy them.

Secondly, in my latest post, the Havens have already passed out of the Vendetta's firing range with at most minor hull damage. Thus, your newest post contradicts the post before it. I quote:

But the Havens were fast vessels, soon passing the firing range of beam weaponry, thus limiting the opportunity for either side to damage an opposing craft with typical turbolasers and ion cannons.

They are, but because of that they're in combat above your havens (single remaining one at the end).

Aside from the number of Havens left then, you're saying that your StarVipers have pursued my own ships? That's fine, but then we wouldn't be within weapon range of the Vendettas, thus tractoring them or targetting them with beam weaponry is out of the question. As well, your own starfighters are then within the range of the Havens.

Starvipers are said to be as manoverable as TIE interceptors. Taht's 125 DPF.

I was looking at the NIF databank when I said that. However, in terms of actual dice stats, you are correct. I'll agree with that then.

Starvipers are faster, no problem.

That's correct, with the exception of when the Deathsaber is using its boost system. Then they'll be able to outrun your ships and escape.

Vendettas are captial ships, and they have far more powerful sensor suits than fighters or smaller cruisers because they're simply bigger, not special.
And we're not bypassing the sensor mask. We're detecting the drivetrails your ships leave behind. We can detect that. It's kind of hard not to notice when an ion cloud just appears out of nowhere.

That makes sense, to a degree. Do you still have the PM I sent you regarding the whole ion cloud business and the S9's engines? If you don't remember, I could post it here. Otherwise, that PM's points still remain unchallenged, I believe.

I meant to say meter, not kilometer, after the 50, and I've changed the quote above.

All right. I got mixed up as well, you are correct, it is 50 meters. Still, the post does not take into account the automatic evasive actions of the Starflares as noted within the R&D of that weapon. Also, we have the speed point to consider as well. I do believe it is possible for your ships to destroy some of them though.

Gravity exhists outside an atmosphere too, you just go into orbit when you hit orbital velocity and your are continuously falling, which gives you the feeling of weightlessness. It's still there, you just don't feel it at orbtal velocity.

That's true; the freefall effect is it? Gravity occurs wherever mass is present as well. Still, the gravitational effects in deep space are minimal, unless one's dealing with a gravitational drive or a massive object.

That didn't make any sense. But we're here to talk Genon, not shadow bombs. I just did something I've been meaning to do by telling you tath.

Sorry, I didn't make that too clear. I was pointing out a possible contradiction in your thought process regarding weapons ranges. You accept the WEG range for a tractor beam projector, but not that of a turbolaser.


I think we should try to resolve the whole turbolaser and range issue then. Any 3rd parties willing to help us with that?

Btw, thanks Omnae.

As a member of one of the factions concerned, I won't post an opinion on what I think should happen.

But I will say something that both of you should remember:

You can't win them all.




No character, in any serious, published story is victorious or successful in every endeavor they undertake.



Yours should be no different.


Don't take it as a personal affront to lose. Use defeat as a motivation for your character, for writing a better story, for continuing a plot arc. If the GC loses, maybe that develops into an all out war against Black Sun. And if Black Sun is defeated, then perhaps they will begin causing problems for the GC elsewhere.


Take it from someone who has fought his fair share of OOC battles:
There is always another argument... another point to make. Either work out a solution, or ask a third party to hand down a ruling and live with it.

Or you'll spend a lot of time in an OOC fight that doesn't really accomplish anything, and takes away from your TRF experience.

I agree as well.

With Tir's last comment, I have a proposition:

The Turbolaser range will be 50 km. That means that Seraphs will not be able to instantly bombard your Vendetta's at range. But by the same token, two of the Havens escape unscathed while the other Haven recieves enough damage that it is not destroyed, but is pretty much useless in combat. The damaged Haven will either jump into hyperspace, or remain inactive at the rear of the GC formation. Which one it does is your choice.

In order to keep the balance of forces fair, the Union MC-90s do not enter the battlefield. Realistically, I'm not sure how fast they can really make it into Coalition space, and if they did, they would probably be pursued by a Coalition border fleet, which would in turn give me an advantage. No more reinforcements for either side.

Thus, it would be your three Vendettas against four Seraphs and two Havens. They are pretty much equal although you should have a slight edge in overall firepower. Lastly, no starfighter casualties for either side.

And accordingly edited.

BTW, I'm sorry about the insults and stuff, though I got nowhere as near bad as I could. It's just that this stealth stuff is so agitating.