The Rebel Faction

First off Corise, I suggest you stop accusing TNO members of being liars. There has been a canon source cited that clearly contradicts your position. That should be enough, but for some reason is not.

There is a canon source that states an ambigious material was used to absorb low-level laser bolts. For we all we know, that could be the same stuff used on the A-6 Juggernaut. How is it explicitlu contradicting my position if it doesn't even state the material's name? Especially when the same author has used the name in other references throughout the book?

I not going to get into a nitty-gritty scientific debate on the physics of superconductors, because neither you nor I has the knowledge to properly represent facts. Suffice to say, we both know that superconductors do not operate above a certain temperature. We know neither what that temperature is, nor what temperature a turbolaser blast will generate. You contend one thing, myself another - and neither of us knows enough to conclusively prove our point. This leaves us at an impasse.

How can you speak for what I know and do not know? I have already explained that the amount of heat a turbolaser generates depends on what it is striking, and that is from both modern physics and EGWT. I don't you're in a position to state that, because I have rebuffed your physicist's point and raised my own, which remains unchallenged. If I defeat your point and have one that you cannot refute, whether or not because you don't know enough, my point still stands, especially when you cannot also refute the counterpoint to your physic's idea.

Consider this as well. You say in it's an impasse, but weren't you the one who said that you had the burden of proof to absolutely show without a doubt that Ultrachrome wouldn't work? How can say that if you that you have done that when cannot defend your points or defeat my own?

However! We should not be having this debate at all, because, once again, canon gives us an answer to the ultrachrome question.

I have no problems with BDE or TNO using superconductors. As has been pointed out, you can write anything you want into an R&D. How you play it is an entirely different matter. The manner in which you are playing ultrachrome is contrary to canon evidence and, in my view, to physics.

I don't see how I've rped Ultrachrome unfairly to you, because I haven't rped it all against you except in a certain case(with the Juaires) which I will be editting to give you more damage. The manner in which I'm playing it isn't contrary to the Canon, where small pieces of it can not only lightsaber energy, but that of similarly sized blasters as well. I fail to see how it is any different if we upscale both the size of the armor and the size of the weapon.

If BDE were playing their superconductor in the same manner, I would raise the same concerns. But they're not, and until they do, it's a moot point. You're more than welcome to use ultrachrome, but in doing so you should conform to how it is used and how it works in canon. You are not doing so.

See above.

You are the one that brought up Shatterpoint as the introduction of ultrachrome, and used it to back up your points. Simply put, that source in fact contradicts your position. In response, you have called a TNO member a liar and you have claimed now that no, Shatterpoint is not talking about ultrachrome.

And so I say Ultrachrome is from "Shatterpoint". There is no explicit fact of ultrachrome that contradicts my position. What's been pointed out is yet another reference to the widespread use of thermalsuperconductors, which the A-6's armor is also a part of. I fail to see why Ultrachrome would be any different in manner to the A-6's armor in terms of performance.

Lastly, Corise, with regards to your contention that a turbolaser blast can be dissipated across the superconductor.
A glancing lightsaber hit, which it can be said to repel, delivers a relatively small ammount of energy. A turbolaser bolt delives more energy by a massive margin instantaniously. You're arguing that your superconductor is able to instantly disipate this level of energy. While the technology may well be able to dissipate this level of energy in theory, I highly doubt it will be able to do so at the same speed the energy is being dumped into it.

It's not a glancing hit, it's a full blown slash. In comparison to the size of the energy blade and the shield itself that's proportionally more energy directed at a single place at a single time than your ship firing at one specific area of a ship that is 125% the size of your own. How can you possibly say that when my ship is larger than your own and that superconductors are just that, they conduct the heat evenly throughout the entire armor instantly. I'm afraid I'm going to direct you back to "Tidings of War" again. From Telan:

“ Sir: those ships are sporting some sort of ablative armor. The energy from the STL-4 was absorbed. There was some damage but only about twenty percent of what should have happened. We have no specifications on any such technology.”

“ Thank you, Yuri,” replied the Archduke, thinking hard for a moment. If they have armor that can absorb energy our only choice is to overwhelm those systems. We have to get close - a long range cannonade will only allow our shots to diminish in potency.

That's the effect of a STL on a Seraph Mk II, the oldest and least capable of ship within KDF at absorbing heat. As you probably know, a STL's bolt is four times as concentrated as that of a heavy turbolaser bolt. That's more energy there than any of the heavy turbolasers that you claim the SOb would be using. Something four times as powerful as what you were using was barely able to pierce through a single layer of Ultrachrome.

But now, not only are you using something less powerful per shot, but you're also going up against thicker Ultrachrome plating backed by a heat-resistant alloy. How can you claim that a heavy turbolaser has that sort of power when a STL barely has it?

But again, neither of us are scientists, nor do we have definitive numbers to work from, so this discussion can thus lead nowhere.

I disagree, partly because I have more senior MSE (Materials Science Engineers) students helping me with this.

Secondly, we're not talking about a single turbolaser blast being directed against a single part of your hull. We're talking about a continious bombardment across your hull (once shields are down, obviously). With that kind of energy in mind, tell me your superconductor can handle it.

Ah, but here's a question: Can you continually keep my shields down? Consider this. Every time you break down the shields and send a bolts down, they hit the armor, you've just sent me energy which automatically is used to repower the shields. If anything, you've just pointed out that you think your ship has more offensive capability than a warship that is not only 125% of the SOb's size, but is also geared for defence. Does that make any sense? Not only do I have more surface area with which to dissipate your weapon's attack, but I probably have a larger power generator as well due to having more internal volume, which in turn would produce more energy than your ship can to power its weapons. If I have more energy concentrated against your attack, can you still pierce my shields?

Consider this. The SOb's attack on the Pegasus shows something. That 960 meter long SOb apparently has enough power that to overwhelm and pierce through a 1605 meter long ISD Mk II's defences. Doesn't that sound a little ridiculous? The Pegasus is smaller, but it sports those same defences with tradeoffs in arament and troop-carrying.

Your rebuttle to my point about your ships' power is "no, they're not." It does not address the root of the problem.

omfg

The difference between the EMPIRE and the Pegasus is pretty big, imo.

The EMPIRE serves one role: it kills capital ships. Your ship might concentrate on defence/offence, but it still carries fighters (and, by extension, the requisite mantinence crews/equipment, pilot accomodations, etc etc etc.) Likewise for soldiers and their equipment. Add to this the facilities neccessary to house all of the people that support those people - galley crews et al. And all of the space required for food and other other essentials... all of that adds up.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say that automation takes up space, too, because while it would, I don't think it would take up nearly as much space as what I described above. EMPIRE essentially replaces a gunner with a brain that handles targetting and firing... the mechanicals to make the gun swivel and fire are there either way, but the facilities to accomodate the gunner are eliminated.

*shrug*

Suffice to say, the EMPIRE is proportionally very powerful for its size. Like I said, if they were to be built in the old way, they would likely be considered many times their physical size.

Also, your own R&D comments that the Pegasus is designed to be comparable to an ISD. So I have no trouble saying that a smaller, specialized ship, is equally capable.

If EMPIRE were a conventionally crewed ship designed to kill capital ships, it likely could not handle an ISD on its own. But because it does away with the massive ammount of space required to sustain a living crew for an extended period of time, it is on roughly the same footing in power.

Take a look at the Thorne Dreadnaught: it is a cappy killer with a living crew. By design, it could handle a Katana Dreadnaught with relative ease, but to take on an ISD, it would be a pack hunter.

My basic point, I guess, is that the EMPIRE is roughly as powerful as a 2000-ish meter conventional warship?

It is purposefully vauge in the description because it is a storyline vessel, not a "well, I have this many guns therefor you lose" ship.

*shrug*

I fully believe it capable of taking apart a PSD in a one-on-one battle. But you have other ship's present.


Positioning wise:

^
^^ ---> PSD Pegasus --> Other PSD^^^
^ ^^^
^^ --> EMPIRE ship

I'm not sure where the rest of your fleet is in relation, but the EMPIRE is off to one side of the Pegasus, but not in between the two.

Now, my question for you:

What do you think would be reasonable damage for the TNO Heavy Cruisers? I seem to recall they took some long range fire from the PSDs, and then both the bomber assault and the other attack were directed against the same ship?

Hello All.


I thought I might interject a comment or two... or three on what's been going on here.

I have noticed how some people like to point to previous roleplays as precident and if it happens in this roleplay it must happen in another.

This of course is a fallacy because, while sometimes true, it is not true regarding decisions fleeters make in the course of their roleplaying competitively.

For instance, one group has a deathstar and another group has an x-wing fighter. In one roleplay, the x-wing fighter blows up the deathstar. In another, this may not happen. The equation (x-fighter > deathstar) is not applicable.


I will pick on Corise and I will pick on Drayson during this little mild diatribe because I think a certain understanding needs to be revisited.


Such as the whole R&D experience. You see, the FAQ states:

Gone are the massive SBD and hull values. Gone are the number of weapon blisters located on the aft ventral quarter. Gone are the MGLT values and number of hyperdrive backups.
Now, all that is required of you is to be reasonable about a design and it's use and no one will care.

But what do we see but numbers of weapons, SBD and hull ratings... and statements like these.. "The energy absorbed in the armor was promptly directed back into the shields; thus, it could possibly be a never-ending cycle."


If this statement [or many of the uber (what I call "bullshit"/propaganda) statements made in the course of an R&D design and 500 word rp] was taken at face value, then their techs would be considered "UBER" and promptly denied the capacity to submit R&D's. If this is something you like to do, this may hurt.

However, as stated over and over, we do not punish people for posting my ship is better than your ship comments or inferences. We punish them if their "use" is grossly exaggerated and unfair.

You see, a member CAN R&D a superlaser onto a Tie Fighter. They can present a 500 word completing the R&D process and, if he/she mentions the Tie Fighter in (closed rp's) as a story vehicle, fine. Now someone may think that because they do this, they are allowed to play it competively and if all they do is fly the Tie Fighter and around like a normal fighter, they can. But the moment they try to fire said superlaser from the Tie Fighter, not only are they banned from R&Ding ever again, they forfeit the competitive roleplay and all previous R&D's.

The Staff grew tired of having to approve/deny each and every little tidbit of technology members were cramming into smaller and smaller spaces. We found that the writing in general was taking a leap forward in terms of story/content that enriched TRF and we wanted to capitalize on it cutting away the excess.

Now there are people who love to R&D (I am not one of them admittedly) and they love the fleet competition which is great but we are not going to dissolve into "my ship is better than yours and will win 100% of the time because it won last time" arguements.

This move actually opens the door to those who are not a member of Corise's TEAM MENSA USA group or Drayon's DEBATE team.


Because, one should not need to R&D something just to "defeat" an R&D.


To let you know where I am coming from, below is a post made in the Staff Forum on this very subject. It may strike a cord, it may read as Greek, in any event:

ok... First of all guys, I was not trying to change the nature of TRF here.

I was simply perceiving a trend with the R&D forum of members thinking their success or failure is dependent upon some technical characteristic of their R&D. This is not true. A person's success or failure is dependent on the following:

1. Amount of character experience they have roleplayed (not simply claiming in a bio that their character is a 50 year old battle veteran). This is also true of NPCs as they may eventually become playable characters (I've had this happen over the years and I am sure others have too).

2. Amount of actual roleplaying (work) one puts into their group affiliation.


R&D's are not the end-all-be-all to competitive roleplaying. They are the window dressing for competitive roleplaying and window dressing only.

It seems to me that some members want to meet on a sterile battlefield (so to speak) with movements/posts dictated by what is stated in an R&D. They want damage assessment dictated by the capabilities written for their R&D and so, in turn, wish the R&D to determine the course of the roleplay.

We moved away from this or at least I had hoped we would.


I wanted to promote fleet roleplays that are determined by the situations/circumstances brought about by character posts. An R&D can be a part of said situation/circumstance but it will not define the situation/circumstance. An R&D (at most) will throw one (maybe two) conditions in any given circumstance/situation. Another character/player has the opportunity to thwart those conditions (within the bounds of reason and making sense, of course) even with conventional items at hand as no R&D'd ship or weapon should ever require another to R&D designed/built to simply engage & contend with it.


I call it the "MacGuyver Principle". A paperclip, tic tac and used banana may give a character an edge not thought of (perhaps the Contegorian jailer slips on the banana and the paperclip disrupts his room-temp conductor and the tic tac gives the escapee the fresh breath he needs to seduce a Kashan officer's wife).



I like the competitive edge TRF has but I just think we need to help members take a step back from micromanaging said competition.

...The energy absorbed in the armor was promptly directed back into the shields; thus, it could possibly be a never-ending cycle...

A bullshit statement. Not the first and not the last in propaganda written to intimidate. This one is not even that bad for the author qualifies it with the words "could possibly". Admittedly TNO is probably the biggest culprit of bullshit and rarely qualifies it with anything.

For an R&D, this is fluff. What matters is how it is played and from what I could see between Telan and Corise's roleplay, it was played rather well.

In playing the R&D vessel, he took and gave which is reasonable.

The notable comments he made that stuck in my mind were:

...the Seraph-class was unique in that it was armored with Ultrachrome, a superconductor. That, in turn, was connected to the ship’s power supply. Thus, the Seraph had the unique ability to absorb energy attacks and transfer the power from those attacks into the ship’s own power supply. Obviously, Ultrachrome by itself wasn’t proof against the heaviest weapons available, such as the STL. However, combined with the ship’s shields, it could take the hit without significant hull damage with the shield performance going down to near zero. Luckily for the cruisers, the energy absorbed from the attack was just sent back to the shield systems, making the shields slightly underpowered compared to the normal full charge.

“We might not be as lucky the next time...



...The Seraph-class, originally designed as a defensive ship, was a durable vessel, due to its Ultrachrome armor and reinforced Ferrocarbon frame. However, the ship could only take so much before it would give way under the fury of green turbolaser bolts...

However, if this rp against STL was to be a subtle way of making this statement: ...The energy absorbed in the armor was promptly directed back into the shields; thus, it could possibly be a never-ending cycle..., true, then it will not fly.


But why?


Why?

Why?

Why?

I have the original mathematics from Jonathan Keohane and a signed note from God!!



What makes a TNO EMPIRE ship "the shit" in one rp but is someone's bitch in another rp??

*gasp* That...


*insert Luke Skywalker cry-baby face*


That's impossible!!!





One word that makes all the difference:


[SIZE=3]

Characters

[/SIZE]


All the situations that come up behind the scenes, all the rights and wrongs of fabrication and construction, all the misses and hits in training soldiers and officers are captured and strained through the net of "characters".

All the slim chances and great gambles are taken within the veil of characters and, above all, led along by the guiding hand of reason.


Is it in you?



The following are simply rants I had regarding what you people wrote in roleplay and in the OOC forum and is expressly my opinion and not necessarily those of the other staff members, my girlfriend or her pet dogs:




Drayson: POST 1

Written as if attacker knew the convoy would be there at a specific time (ie: "Five minutes to contact, the Commodore ordered the Interdictor to half...")

I read in this that TNO detected the ships before capturing (In my mind a stretch) and in the 5 minutes it took to detect said ships and activate the grav well, a convoy travelling at speeds higher than lightspeed would have passed them by before the grav wells even activated (at least at 5 minutes out at any rate) effectively nixing the roleplay.



Corise: POST 1


If Drayson did half the stuff you did in this post previously, he'd have destroyed the convoy, jumped away eating a pot of beans boiled slow before you could have done anything.

I mean jeezz..

You go from lazily sipping tea to battlestations in 0.032 seconds (give or take).

Your people seem like they are flying the Starship Enterprise.. "Captain, I detect a gravity well up ahead and am taking us out of warp before we hit it.."

"Very good Mr. Chekov!"

How can you detect mass shadows traveling at light speed if your hyperspace travel is based on beacons? In my opinion, that gravity well should have yanked your fleet out of hyperspace and spilled hot tea all over your character's lazy ass as he falls off his chair onto the floor.



Fleet perpendicular to TNO attack convoy??

Impossible in my opinion. Enroute to Metalorn and being perpendicular cannot be reconciled. At least with your illustration of approach vectors. Either you would not be heading to Metalorn or you wouldn't be perpendicular.


Then, you throw everything but the kitchen sink (maybe that too) at Drayson before his shots even hit the transports.

wtf?

You state your long range weapons capabilities as if it's a foregone conclusion you are going to hit when you are outside a full mass shadow. While your weapons may reach, that they hit anything at that range is dubious. Not that they can't but it definitely won't be anything near 100%. Especially when you clutter the space between with hidden fighters and friendly transports.

You decide to launch fighters?? Where are you getting all this time and what is Drayson doing during this time? Going to the bathroom?
Apparently Drayson's rate of fire is so slow the freighters cross TNO's bow and circle his fleet to position themselves between your perpendicular vector and TNO's broadside vector.

And how does a freighter flying into the face of oncoming warships know what firing vector the warships are using? It is up to the firing ships to either hit or miss the freighters; not the freighters to dodge as they are fleeing the Imps.

I mean if a freighter can dodge the oncoming fire of your fleet, then the Imperials can certainly do that...especially at a greater distance.

Conclusion: Freighters take on friendly fire as rp'er has moved them into line of fire between fleets.


And they still have time to turn on cameras..


Drayson: With all that shit he's thrown, he's gotta hit something (besides his own freighters). Besides, you are playing against his character with an NPC. Your man is outmatched imo and Corise does have the edge in this. At least until Kraken approaches, if he approaches.



OOC Crap:


I am amused at how everyone brings up the US or US military as doing this in a lab or having this jet plane that does this other thing...and yet, as if it's the pinnacle of examples. Tell me, when was the last time a TNO Dark Trooper, Spartan or Kashan Shock Trooper (complete with ultrachrome underwear) complained of substandard armour? When did they go running in fear of shrapnel because some lazy SOB wanted to make a quick buck and skimped in the armour specs? Leave the USA out of your arguments until this has happened.


I believe Ben Firestar's comments regarding hyperspace travel are spot on. Way to go Ben!


I believe Drayson's SOB EMPIRE doesn't have the gravity well because it's not on the R&D. If we yanked Griff's shields on his Mk II Bird of Prey because he forgot to add them to the R&D, it wouldn't be right to allow the gravity well generator. Jan had a point in that.


Ultrachrome *dun dun dun*

I believe Wes Vos is correct about Ultrachrome.

Corise's Quote in support of Ultrachrome:

From Shatterpoint, pg. 266: "The entire shield is always the same temperature throughout. Even the energy of a lightsaber is instantly conducted away. Hold a blade against it long enough and the whole thing will melt, but it cannot be cut. Not by an energy blade.

Wes/Drayson's Quote in support of their view:

"Thousands of years ago - before the Sith War - when shield generators were so massive that only the largest capital ships could carry them, smaller starships were armored with a mirrorlike superconducting allow, which was sufficient to resist the low-fire-rate laser cannons of the day."

Corise: I am not convinced it's ultrachrome being described in 2nd quote because I don't see ultrachrome mentioned specifically.

Omnae: Ultrachrome is not mentioned specifically in your quote either.


Besides, "smaller starships were armoured with mirrorlike superconducting alloy" (book) and "Ultrachrome (according to Wookiepedia) was a metal used as starship armor...Silver and superconductive..."

That's good enough.

Still, you have a point about it being roleplayed with Telan but then again, if someone rp'd a lightsaber not cutting off their arm if sliced, does that mean everyone is invulnerable to lightsaber thrusts since it was incapable of cutting someone in rp?

In any event, I was not going to claim ultrachrome is obsolete but I don't think it's the ultimate material to bridge the gap between Empire and Contegorian through better ships. Your ships are not going to sit there and shrug off ISD after ISD on it's march to Coruscant methinks.

You bring up AT-AT's as having armour that's conductive so it's not a useless metal. And if you want to make your ships invunerable to snow speeders you are welcome too... but I do not think an AT-AT can shrug off Capital Ship bolts by absorbing them or reflecting them.

So between the quotes Wes found and Telan's rp, a happy medium can be found and it seems like it has been found.


A final word on Ultrachrome. And Corise might not have been aware of this but people frown on suddenly finding canon minerals in their backyard for mass production. That's why Yaga Minor hasn't found any viable Bacta desposits in Bindhi Drayson's sock drawer and the like. That's why no one has unearthed a new source of brilliant and stronger lightsaber gems. Just a thought to keep in mind. I don't think you've come to that but the GC isn't going to be outfitting their fleet with ultrachrome. Maybe cheap knockoffs but not ultrachrome... It used to be an actual rule but people got in the habit of not doing it so it was removed.


BUT WHAT ABOUT THE CREE AR AND BLACK DRAGON EMPIRE? THEY HAVE PEOPLE THAT CAN PISS AND DESTROY WORLDS...

Maybe so. But (and this is key) they've never been roleplayed. So it is not smart to base your R&D design and capabilities on a group that is ultimately fundamentally, technologically and culturally different. Anyone claiming their techs are better than either group is foolish.


Kach: Stop goading Corise! It's ok if you're intimidated. Not everyone has a big dick like Beff.


Beff - omg!


And, of everything said, this really pissed me off:

I disagree, partly because I have more senior MSE (Materials Science Engineers) students helping me with this.

W.T.F.?

Actually, Corise, I am not mad but I found it strange that you could be carry such a cynical view and berate poor little Evn on his R&D (ignoring school and parents to come up with a design that kicks ass and probably getting grounded for it) only to find you have your own TEAM MENSA USA and NERDS R US backing your R&D's?

I am sorry. Maybe you mean't with the arguement but I was sitting there thinking...here we working stiffs are out there making a buck contending with a crabby boss, lousy pay and there you sit with Albert Einstein riding shotgun whispering the secrets of the universe into your ear.

I am sorry but cry me a fucking river next time you complain about someone's R&D.


sheesh..


lol..

*shakes head*

Anyway, I am off to go eat and catch up on my reading of The Ten Thousand. A story about a Greek named Xenophon. And if he dies at the end I'll really be pissed.

Battlestar Galactica (being taped) should pull me through. It better.

No answers required on the rants. Just me being me. Sounds like your stuff is being taken care of anyway so carry on.

I have to say, Om's post made my day. I have to agree Drayson on both accounts. I have to agree.