Hunters & Gatherers... - OOC Discussion - Forums (Page 3)

21 4:55am 14/10/06

fuck that duck

Dolash:
Irregardless of the rest of your points for now (it's late and I'm tired), I would like to point that #3) is conjecture. You didn't specify who you were firing on, so Corise is free to interpret the result as he sees fit. Common sense rules that they wouldn't all have targetted the exact same garbage cylinder, but it doesn't automatically mean they'd pick off certain ships first. If you wanted a firing pattern you probably should have put that in the post.

I agree with your point only in theory. While it's true, in the interest of storytelling there's also something we call the law of charity. And that is, we assume the most logical thing when confusion arises, and not the one that suites us best.
A military fleet will obviously target the most apparent threat before an unarmed convoy.

*shrug*

I also should point out that I did not specify targets because I did not know what the makeup of Corise fleet would be. Logic still dictates we would target their combat ships before civilian shifts.

[size=1]"So the woman asked me what I wanted on the sandwich and I said I do not care it is for a duck, and she was like oh then it's free. I was not aware that ducks eat for free at Subway. It's like give me a chicken fajita sub, but don't worry about ringing it up, it is for a duck.”
-Mitch Hedberg
[/size]

Corise Lucerne

22 5:03am 14/10/06

Confederation Admiral

I find that awfully convient. If you're escorting a convoy, fine. But this "Hey, we just happened to be here at the exact same time, but on a slightly different vector" stuff is iffy, at best.

It's also awfully convienent that you happened to know where a convoy was showing up as well, since that's not public knowledge, and you didn't explain how found that information out either. Explain to me why I can't use the vector thing? You gave me room to describe what was going on, so I did.

At any rate, if we assume that to be the case, then your ships are well out gun range of mine irregardless, since the Interdictor's well's are the size of a planetary boundary and you would be on the edge of them.

I'm right now using weapons that don't have range limits; so that matter's not.

You misunderstand my point. The Interdictor was operating at half power, thus the gravity well was smaller than it's maximum extension. Once the convoy was pulled from hyperspace, power was boosted to full. That means the convoy is in the middle of the field, instead of on the edge, as would normally be the case. It has nothing to due with the power of your ships.

Ah, my apology then; I thought you were referring to my warships; I have no problem with that at all. The freighters are fleeing on sublight drives.

However, your takeover of Metalorn makes very clear they are in a very vulnerable position food wise, having just gone onto reserve stocks. This implies that incoming shipments will be larger than normal. Not that the makeup of the convoy is of particular importance.

Fact is, that's not common knowledge at all; not even Metalorn's own people know about that, much less the outside powers. The idea of using many different convoys of varying sizes is nothing new; the Allies experimented with that at a lot, and it was standard practice during the age of sail to discourage and confuse pirates.

EDIT: There's also the possibility that it is a private convoy as well, and hence the small size and lack of escort.

Jan Dondana

23 6:08am 14/10/06

Minister of Defence

I don't really want to get into this argument and I probably shouldn't, but just a quick point.

Kind of re-iterating Corise's first point in the post above mine, without trying to sound like "well you did something unbelievable so we did", if I do, that's not my goal. Following this "Law of Charity" you made, we allowed you to somehow know about a foodstuff convoy. We didn't argue how you knew or ask you to RP out how you got the knowledge (i'm sure with a little thinking it wouldn't be too hard), but at the same point, if we're going to follow the "law of charity", then we'd kind of expect you to follow it, and in an effort to mimimize arguments, allow the possibility for a Kashan fleet going through at the same time to exist. Reasonably it wouldn't be too hard for us to RP the same fleet coming from Metalorn despite communications being jammed, just the same as it wouldn't have been too hard for you to RP how IHC found out about this convoy and planned an assault that includes a relatively rare ship (the Dictator) and some of your newest ships, but Corise chose to do it this way (as you chose to do it your way), and it is feasible. Kashan and Metalorn are close together, Metalorn is a major industrial producer, especially for military stuff, in the Contegorian Confederacy/GC as a whole and its a border planet, yet arguably a border planet for what is the "heart" of the Coalition. Frequent patrols and even large military movements in the area makes a lot of sense, we would want to defend our newest system, especially one so important to any war efforts and one on the TNO/GC border, in an area that TNO defends strongly, especially against GC intrusion (see: you at Roche). While Roche was slightly different (it actually being on the trade route and all), Metalorn is still right beside the same border and TNO could decide the concept is the same. Realistically, looking at the position of Roche, Metalorn and the rest of GC planets, not only is it reasonable for the Contegorian Confederation fleet to maintain a large presence, but GC's fleet would also be traveling between Metalorn and Roche a lot (or as much as possible given the fact that a large portion of GC's Eastern Province fleet is engaged in battle with BDE and therefore wouldn't be able to defend the rest of their area).

So I kind of lost track of where I was going, but the point is, the presence of a GC fleet is feasible and following your "law of charity" and a general desire to avoid arguments, I think it would be easiest to drop the argument about the presence of a Kashan fleet. The rest of the arguments I'll let you guys deal with, just wanted to add this in.

Omnae

24 6:41am 14/10/06

Kneel Before Zod!

Before I take off, I wanted to pose a few little things that stuck out immediately:

1. A minor point. Contegorians have 3 Pegasus class ships. I seem to recall hearing that they only had one and that there would be others but not for "quite a while". Just because a planet is taken does not mean a Pegasus Class ship automatically springs into being. With all these other smaller craft (R&D's) they've been building, it just seemed ... off.

2. The point about not knowing if Matalorn is hungry or it being common knowledge. As I recall, Corise made some good points about people commonly knowing that Agamar was conquered (by Cree Ar though Corise's characters mistakenly believe it is the Empire) because of their interdependence/association/business ties with the world and it being their source of food. So if that is common knowledge, it is definitely not a stretch to figure that those planets who depends on foodstuffs out of Agamar would be going hungry or feeling the pinch in my opinion.

3. The map of the positions: If the convoy is enroute to Metalorn and the Contegorian Fleet is enroute to Metalorn, how come they are facing two different directions opposite each other? How can it be a matter of differing vectors going to the same place if they aren't even facing the same direction?

Show where Metalorn is on the map...

Park Kraken

25 11:20am 14/10/06

Back with a Vengeance

A quick insertion here:

2. The point about not knowing if Matalorn is hungry or it being common knowledge. As I recall, Corise made some good points about people commonly knowing that Agamar was conquered (by Cree Ar though Corise's characters mistakenly believe it is the Empire) because of their interdependence/association/business ties with the world and it being their source of food. So if that is common knowledge, it is definitely not a stretch to figure that those planets who depends on foodstuffs out of Agamar would be going hungry or feeling the pinch in my opinion.

And even if it's not, It's not entirely unpossible that Imperial Intelligence simply sent the information to the Empire, seeing as how, with Drayson being effectivley head of intelligence, would be the first to know of Metalorn's plight.

Corise Lucerne

26 1:05pm 14/10/06

Confederation Admiral

I agree with your point only in theory. While it's true, in the interest of storytelling there's also something we call the law of charity. And that is, we assume the most logical thing when confusion arises, and not the one that suites us best.
A military fleet will obviously target the most apparent threat before an unarmed convoy.

*shrug*

I also should point out that I did not specify targets because I did not know what the makeup of Corise fleet would be. Logic still dictates we would target their combat ships before civilian shifts.

I don't think there should be any confusion at all; you ambushed the convoy, and shortly thereafter, also pulled out the war fleet. You've already shown that you understand this as well, because you made the point of the gravity-well projectors changing power, and consequently, pointed out that the war fleet would be farther away than the convoy fleet as well. I understand your point that you would target the most important threat around, but there simply was none; except for the Deathsabers, which you wouldn't be able to see or target.

1. A minor point. Contegorians have 3 Pegasus class ships. I seem to recall hearing that they only had one and that there would be others but not for "quite a while". Just because a planet is taken does not mean a Pegasus Class ship automatically springs into being. With all these other smaller craft (R&D's) they've been building, it just seemed ... off.

You are correct; there was only one built originally, but there were more planned, as stated within the rest of the Pegasus R&D thread. Telan made the point that he didn't want to see many at first, and I agreed; but he also pointed out that as the group gained planets, I could field more; which I have. I'm not even fielding half of what he proposed based on the number of Confederation planets, whose number is also larger than that of several actual factions who field more larger warships, such as the Cree'ar or Stellar Enterprises.

2. The point about not knowing if Matalorn is hungry or it being common knowledge. As I recall, Corise made some good points about people commonly knowing that Agamar was conquered (by Cree Ar though Corise's characters mistakenly believe it is the Empire) because of their interdependence/association/business ties with the world and it being their source of food. So if that is common knowledge, it is definitely not a stretch to figure that those planets who depends on foodstuffs out of Agamar would be going hungry or feeling the pinch in my opinion.

Yes, that would be believeable and I agree with that. But that would not explain how Drayson knew where to set up the ambushes. There are hundreds of agricultural planets just in Agamar's sector alone that could supply Metalorn just as well, with thousands of routes as well. The fact that he knew Audacia and Kashan would be supplying them does not make much sense, as the fact that they is a secret between those three governments. Oh, and Metalorn's people aren't starving. Their foodstock could still support them for several months at normal conditions; and moreover, a lot of the populace has moved off-planet(to Genon) as well, which would then also increase the amount of food available per person.

3. The map of the positions: If the convoy is enroute to Metalorn and the Contegorian Fleet is enroute to Metalorn, how come they are facing two different directions opposite each other? How can it be a matter of differing vectors going to the same place if they aren't even facing the same direction?

That's very easy possible, because where the convoy is coming from and where the war fleet are coming from are from two different places. Genon and Audacia are all fairly close to Metalorn at least from where they've been rped, albeit do not show up on the planet's map. Kashan(which does up on the map) is not too far away in relative terms as well. The war fleet could be coming from Genon, Audacia, or Kashan, whereas the convoy could be be coming from Audacia or Kashan. The two groups of Coalition ships aren't coming from the same place.

And even if it's not, It's not entirely unpossible that Imperial Intelligence simply sent the information to the Empire, seeing as how, with Drayson being effectivley head of intelligence, would be the first to know of Metalorn's plight.

Could well be; but it doesn't explain how Drayson even knew of the Coalition convoys, and much less how he would a certain one would appear as well.

Demosthenes X

27 4:31pm 14/10/06

fuck that duck

Imperial Intelligence is the largest intel group in the galaxy. The information on when a civilian convoy is leaving a planet is not hard to find.

I still find your fleet happening to be in the same place at the same time, but also happening to be there slightly later and on a different vector (which happens to maximize the effectiveness of their special weapons), very convient. It's not, if I may be so bold, in the spirit of the RP. But that's quite allright, so let's go on.

[size=1]"So the woman asked me what I wanted on the sandwich and I said I do not care it is for a duck, and she was like oh then it's free. I was not aware that ducks eat for free at Subway. It's like give me a chicken fajita sub, but don't worry about ringing it up, it is for a duck.”
-Mitch Hedberg
[/size]

Beff Pike

28 8:52pm 14/10/06

Bounty Hunter

Though I am loathe to do it, I must weigh in on the side of TNO and, unfortunatly, Drayson on this matter. As observed by Omnae above, and if agreed upon, then there is little dispute as to the external conduct of this thread (such as plausibility or even possibility) and as such further debate should probably focus on the internal content of the story though naturally there will be influences from with-out (such as Corise' Agamar thread and the pre-history/history of ISB).

However;

Imperial Intelligence is the largest intel group in the galaxy. The information on when a civilian convoy is leaving a planet is not hard to find.

This is not valid, nor is it even handed. It cannot be allowed to set any sort of future perspective. I have personally witnessed this argument used more then once and on multiple occasions; debunked. The leg work is what makes these things possible and the moment you start going by statements as mentioned above you begin a slippery slope where-by anyone can simply claim, without support, that there are extenuating circumstances which are not part of the story but contribute directly to it.

The statement above, in my opinion, would be much more complete and acceptable were it to contain supporting arguments such as; quoting previouos TNO stories which indicate that ISB (or whatever you're calling it) can actually lay claim to being "the largest intel group in the galaxy".

EDIT: Not that anyone really doubts the scale and scope of ISB, but that elitist outlook is not fair to the young and the up-and-coming.

Corise Lucerne

29 4:52am 15/10/06

Confederation Admiral

Before we get started on the technical aspects, I would just like to say that your writing style is exceptionally good. Anyways…

The Dictator was exceptionally well shielded, and for the moment in little real danger from the enemy assault. Nonetheless, his first order was for that ship to begin to retreat, making for the Imperial Exploratory Fleet stationed nearby.

I realize that the Dictator is making the jump and leaving for hyperspace, but I think it would have some serious damage in certain sections of the ship due to the railguns, and that there would be crew losses from the gravitational field disruptors for future reference when those weapons are used.

From what I have read I do not think that there are no defences on the Dictator that would be very effective against a the weapons being used by the some of the ships. A single railgun, let alone against the 9 heavy railguns currently being used on by the Cavalier-class. Aside from numerous canonical sources, Kas has shown the merits of using high-speed projectile weapons, particularly those that fire slugs: “The projectiles are unharmed by ray shielding, and strike only particle shielding and hull. Although particle shielding is designed to specifically to stop asteroids and other space debris with ease, it is ill equipped for the speed and intent of the Medium Gauss Gun's slug.” While the KDI III-7 is not a Gauss Gun, it is a 70 meter long Railgun, and would have similar performance in terms of how its projectiles interact with shields.

If you would prefer not to look at it from that perspective, recognize the SAC shells are being used. The SAC-style shell starts a small, but superheated plasma fusion process when it hits the ship, which is basically like getting hit by an armor-piercing nuclear fusion warhead; that’s going to leave a little mark. Moreover, the gravitational field disruptors of the Juaire’s are not affected by shields or any armor at all, since it disrupts the Dictator’s own gravitational field.

A single SH-F canon would destroy a moderately sized freigter or severely damage a small capital ship. Packed together, they were devestating, as the enemy's smaller gunships soon found out. Waves of energy washed over the bows of those vessels, engulfing shields and overloading them.

Could I get a comparative rating for a SH-F in terms of heavy turbolasers? I think a single heavy turbolaser could also slag a moderately sized freighter pretty easily, and I would rather not jip you on the amount of damage that would be done to my ships.

Curiously, as the remaining freighters fled through the "no-man's land" between the two fleets, they swung erratically through space. The Commodore had seen vids of the Millenium Falcon fighting its way through the asteroid field near Hoth, and the manouvers were eerily similar.
Yet there was no asteroid field between the two fleets. With nothing to lose, he ordered the fleet to lay down covering fire in the supposedly empty space.

The explosions that began to light up the area as his ships began to fire confirmed his suspicions: stealth ships.

Um…what? In my previous post, the freighters are out of the firing arcs altogether between the two fleets, while the starfighters are admittedly within the no-man’s space. Thus, there would be no maneuvering by the freighters to give the impression that they were dodging something.

"I want to know as soon as we can see them." The Empire's own stealth fighters, of the EMPIRE class, had come forward now, and were soon engaging the nearly invisible enemy fighters. The opposing ships were given away by their lasers, and between their apparent slow speed and the lightning-quick reflexes of the EMPIRE ships, many met their doom.

I object. One does not simply roleplay what another forces would too; especially in a fleeting engagement. As it is, that is exactly what Kashan starfighters never do at the beginning; the starfighters generally go with alpha strikes using their stealthed missiles to first decimate the enemy ranks. After the initial missile attack, then the KDF ships break up and engage for hit-and-runs.

"Right where they don't want to be." And at that moment, the EMPIRE capital ship vanished into hyperspace...

I'm a little confused. Don't you have interdictor mines up right now to block all hyperspace travel in the nearby vicinity?

Kach Thorton

30 7:28am 15/10/06

He only watches soccer for the riots

I've got nothing for the last things, but the technical things...

If you would prefer not to look at it from that perspective, recognize the SAC shells are being used. The SAC-style shell starts a small, but superheated plasma fusion process when it hits the ship, which is basically like getting hit by an armor-piercing nuclear fusion warhead;

Or basically a turbolaser.

Moreover, the gravitational field disruptors of the Juaire’s are not affected by shields or any armor at all, since it disrupts the Dictator’s own gravitational field.

How fast does this weapon effect the crew? In the R&D you said it took a while, but in the thread it's happening on the first time you use it.

"Beff Pike":
Every time a nub grows up an icon dies.
So thanks, Kach - you killed David Carradine!

"Omnae":
"What? What? Where are the nipples?" enters Seth Vinda.

"NIF. But I will find them! I am god like that." Kach Thorton speaks up.

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