The Rebel Faction

Kach, don't rp what my fighters are doing; especially since that's what they were not going to do at all.

You said they dispersed. I simply motivated them a little.

Quote:
The following light show was as spectacular and beautiful a sight as any had ever seen. Planetary
It seemed they had won the day. The planetary defenses were down and at any time a fleet of troop carriers could be brought in to begin the ground assault, the defending fighters had all either fled or had been destroyed, and the enemy fleet had fled.

But then the Kashan fleet returned.

If you are goign to quote me, quote me correctly.

The following light show was as spectacular and beautiful a sight as anyone had ever seen. Planetary weapons emplacements, being detected one by one as they came online, launched their Emerald Turbolaser bolts and blue Ion Cannon blasts at the assaulting Imperial battlegroup. At the same time, the far more powerful Imperial force's bombardment begin. Ion Cannons began pummeling targets of opportunity, taking the power grid offline, knocking out nearly every defensive Turbolaser and Ion Cannon, and even bringing down a decently sized section of the planetary shield offline, along with the backup projectors that turned on to fill the gaps.

Second of all, I can get as near to Metalorn as I want, save past the shields. Now without losses is an entirely different story. Planetary defenses, I explained, were being knocked out as they came online. A turbolaser or Ion Cannon does not suddenly become ready for action. Systems must be charged and checked over to make sure there's no problems before going into action, because if something is wrong it might explode or the reactor core might melt down. Perhaps it is always active, which woudl save on recharge time and so I woudl assume it to be the case. Great, but you still have to check them over. And ground based shots are not really that accurate. The atmosphere would refract the beam (this is the main problem earthly military forces are haveing trouble with before they can deploy their own laser weaponry), and the fact the bolt woudl not arrive immediatly in orbit forces you to second guess where my ships are going, and so if they change velocity the slightest bit the shot will miss by dozens of kilometers.

As for my own ships... I have several times the firepower of any ground based turret network. All my ships Ion cannons are firing at a select few targets, and while most woudl be terribly innacurate for hte same reasons as your own ground based defenses (minus that part about moving... I know exactly where I'm goign), even a signle Ion Blast woudl be able to cripple a turret. A select few systems knocked out woudl take it out of action. A continuous bombardment, to make sure the turrets don't become active again after the Ionizing wears off, woudl make sure they stay out of the battle until my troops can take the projectors.

Besides, a surface turbolaser or Ion Cannon can only cover a few hundred square kilometers of sky. What if I simply choose not to be in that area? It woudl not be an unprecidented feat to detect where the batterys are, adn move out of their way, perticularly with the surveyor's powerful sensors. That woudl be a logical reason to bring them along- to detect planetary defenses.

Second of all, I have severe doubts on the number of planetary defense cannons you have. Imperial Protectorate Capital worlds have only four Turbulasers and two Ion cannons. You act as if you have hundreds or thousands. Where is Kashan goign to get the cash for this? GC? A shipyard is one thing, but a full fleged network of surface defense cannons is entirely different. That would cost as much as a few good fleets. And Metalorn wouldn't have build them. They don't need hundreds. A few, at most. They're capitalists, not warriors, and as I quoted from Battlefield Earth, "Profit first, last, and always- profit!"

BTW, I assumed your fleet was coming back. An honest mistake. That last line has been removed.

I didn't destroy the fighters, I said they were left there with the cap ships gone. That was a wording error.

And the post is now back in teh shop.

BTW, gravwells on even the old 418s took only a miniute to charge, and it takes a miniute or two to calculate a microjump out of system without his fancy microjump system to help guide him, so I had the time to charge em.

With regards to planetary defences, some comments:

1) Kach is right in that you will only have a few guns able to target an approaching fleet. When TRF built defences, each turbolaser network meant you had one to target a fleet. It was deemed unfair to claim that by building one network, you suddenly had twenty guns, and that sort of thing.

2) I do believe that planetary guns would be used to cover the world while shields are brought up. They would be kept "at the ready", by nature of their design.

3) When TRF built defences, the TNO "Fortress" was:

1 x Epsilon Station
2 x Gencore II shields
(Sometimes 1 or 2 Gencore I shields)
4 x KDY turbolasers
2 x Ion Cannons

This was the defence for Coruscant, Yaga Minor, etc. Metalorn would have rated a light defence in comparison.

Add to that that whatever defences they do have are old and probably not terribly well mantained compared to Imperial standards.

Also, Corise, I see no mention on CUSWE or Wookipedia of Metalorn having any sort of super heavy defence. It would have defences, certainly, but nothing extraordinary.

4) Why are you shields already up? The cost of operating such a system full time is incredible - I doubt Metalorn could afford it (or would willingly pay for it). Kashan likely could not afford it either, they way they spend money.

5) As you know/should know, games are not a sound basis for argument here. Rebellion is a game.


Other:

1) Your fighters. They are not infalliable. The Surveyor is designed specifically to detect cloaked ships. It can see you, imho.

2) I believe that shields stop Ion cannon fire. If they did not, why would the Empire not simply have bombarded Hoth with ion fire? Why would the Rebels not have simply disabled the Imperial fleet with their Ion canon? Remember, they covered the transports with ion fire, and they waited until the shield was down to fire it.

The Hoth cannon was able to disable an ISD so easily by virtue of its incredible power, not because its shots went right through shields.


I normally would agree that Kach has done far to much in one post, however! Corise's fleet abandoned the planet. That gives Kach some room, because Corise now has only passive defences between the TNO fleet and the planet. It is illogical for Kach to spend four posts going "now I'm clearing more of the minefield". IMO.

1) Kach is right in that you will only have a few guns able to target an approaching fleet. When TRF built defences, each turbolaser network meant you had one to target a fleet. It was deemed unfair to claim that by building one network, you suddenly had twenty guns, and that sort of thing.

Fair enough. I agree to that.

3) When TRF built defences, the TNO "Fortress" was:
1 x Epsilon Station
2 x Gencore II shields
(Sometimes 1 or 2 Gencore I shields)
4 x KDY turbolasers
2 x Ion Cannons

This was the defence for Coruscant, Yaga Minor, etc. Metalorn would have rated a light defence in comparison.

Thanks for info.

That's incredibly low based on what's have said Coruscant's defences are in the books and otherwise. There's references to it having at least two layers of planetary shielding per hemisphere with Wedge's Gamble. I would disagree about Metalorn having light defences. If you are the Empire, do you want your one of your most major factory worlds to have light defences? I was also basing Metalorn's defences on canonical references, rather than on what TRF has actually used. I've looked around at what other factions have used as well BDE, for example:

Dameo:
-Gencore II Shield Network
-Gencore II Shield Network
-Gencore I Shield Network
-Gencore I Shield Network
-PIM Den Network

<b>Argai</b>
-Gencore II Shield Network
-Gencore II Shield Network
-Ion Cannon Network
-PIM Den Network
-KDY Advanced Turbolaser Network
-KDY Advanced Turbolaser Network

Granted that these are the more fortified and important planets, but Metalorn is probably the most fortified planet within the Confederation. I'm looking up what they mean by Network as well, since it seems to imply something else as well.

Add to that that whatever defences they do have are old and probably not terribly well mantained compared to Imperial standards.

And so the ones on Metalorn are old. The Mk I versions of the Gencore and the LNR. I would disagree about the maintenance as well, especially since it's just recently joined the militiant Confederation.

Also, Corise, I see no mention on CUSWE or Wookipedia of Metalorn having any sort of super heavy defence. It would have defences, certainly, but nothing extraordinary.

I suggest you look at the planet database. I already listed the defences before this thread even started. It wasn't exactly a big secret. And I'm basing that on Common Sense as well, as stated above.

4) Why are you shields already up? The cost of operating such a system full time is incredible - I doubt Metalorn could afford it (or would willingly pay for it). Kashan likely could not afford it either, they way they spend money.

As I've already explained, they were left over by the Galactic Empire when they left the planet.

5) As you know/should know, games are not a sound basis for argument here. Rebellion is a game.

I disagree, especially when the items in question are accepted to exist, and when they only appear in that game, such as the Gencore and LNR.

1) Your fighters. They are not infalliable. The Surveyor is designed specifically to detect cloaked ships. It can see you, imho.

From the Tie Fighter Hangar Bay:

Name/Model#
Surveyor-class Scout Cruiser
Designer/Manufacturer
Sienar Fleet Systems
Combat Designation
Medium Cruiser/Escort Carrier
Length
600 meters
Crew
2814
Weapons
16 Quad Laser Cannons
Fighter Capacity
One TIE Squadron (recon)
Other Ships
2 shuttles
200 probe droids
3000 remote sensor buoys
Era Introduced
Height of Empire



An impressive asset to the Imperial navy, the Surveyor is Sienar Fleet Systems' most powerful scout craft. Providing real-time tactical intelligence and targetting data back to a fleet, the Surveyor is capable of scanning entire systems by itself, a distinct advantage over smaller recon TIEs. The Surveyor is equipped with an incredible array of sensors, communications equipment, a Crystal Grav Trap, Hyperwave Signal Indicators and a large number of probe droids and sensor remotes. To provide the communications capabilities needed in this kind of vessel, it is equipped with a Mk 30 subspace transceiver fitted with a Class IV power booster, over fifty tight beam communications lasers, a powerful communications jammer and a full HoloNet Tranciever. The brains of the ship are occupied in a pair of Series 50 mainframes, which provide more computing power than many planet-based systems. The Surveyor is visibly distinguished from the Interceptor only by the hundreds of thousands of antennae sticking up out of the hull.

Because of this ship's power, it was fitted with the most state-of-the-art anti-theft system. A self-destruct system is activated by one of three ways: 1) entering the command destruct, which starts a two minute count down; 2) remote command from an officer of the rank of Grand Moff or higher; and, 3) failure to reset the timed switch once per duty watch. In form, these craft are nearly indistinguishable from the Interceptor. The Imperial navy has purchased several of these craft.

I see no mention of it being designed to specifically detect cloaked ships, moreover, the only way that Kach has said he has been detecting my ships is with CGTs, which I have already shown wouldn't work in this case. If you're going to detect it somehow, tell me how.

2) I believe that shields stop Ion cannon fire. If they did not, why would the Empire not simply have bombarded Hoth with ion fire? Why would the Rebels not have simply disabled the Imperial fleet with their Ion canon? Remember, they covered the transports with ion fire, and they waited until the shield was down to fire it.

TRF and canon precedence says otherwise. EGWT, pg 84: "Since ion blasts are unimpaired by energy shields, ships have no defense against them short of reconfiguring their shields--and this would make the shields useless for absorbing standard laser blasts."

Ship ion cannons have limited ranges in most cases. For example, the NK-7s used on the Imperator Mk I have only 66% of the range of the heavy turbolasers. Planetary ion cannons are different in that the fact that their huge size overcomes the range disadvantage associated with ship ion cannons, but they too would likely have less range than a turbolaser of the same size. From the Star Wars Databank entry of the v150:

The ion cannon has a very long reach, able to target vessels in orbital and superorbital space. It draws power from a dedicated reactor typically sunken into the ground 40 meters beneath the emplacement. The KDY v-150 is strictly a fixed emplacement weapon, usually mounted on a rotating base and covered by a semi-circular reinforced permacite shell. The cannons are modular, and can be erected in a matter of hours.

The Hoth cannon was able to disable an ISD so easily by virtue of its incredible power, not because its shots went right through shields.

Where are you basing that from? If it's on basis of the whole power aspect, in that case it means that my LNRs can simply destroy the Astrus-class Star Destroyers with a single hit. If that is the case, I think that's overpowered to say the least.

I normally would agree that Kach has done far to much in one post, however! Corise's fleet abandoned the planet. That gives Kach some room, because Corise now has only passive defences between the TNO fleet and the planet. It is illogical for Kach to spend four posts going "now I'm clearing more of the minefield". IMO.

Kach has more than a minefield to deal with. Kach has potentially to deal with a swarm of stealth starfighters that could make life hellish. Moreover, the planetary defences are already active and ready to fire on TNO fleet, which they could very well do given their superorbital range.

What happens in canon is almost irrelevent to TRF - in canon, if an unimportant planet gets attacked, there wasn't even a fleet on station to deal with it. I refer you to Thrawn's lightning attacks on several New Republic planets: the good guys had to scramble a fleet to defend the planet from a nearby base. Here, every planet seems to have a swarm of Star Destroyers standing by to defend it.

*shrug*

The TNO defences were, by TRF standards, very heavy. The Gencore II was said to be able to stop a superlaser blast, for example.

I asked why the shields were already online when the TNO fleet arrived, though. That implies that the shields are kept up 24/7 - which is an incredible commitment of energy and money. The reason a planet might employ turbolasers to cover themselves while shields come up is because it takes time. And it takes time because they drain huge ammounts of power.

Neither here nor there, really, but something to think about.

Regarding ion canons, such is only be feeling from watching the films. I'm well aware that TRF canon contradicts this - though I'm sure if you look around, you'll see examples of both, so it's really a moot point.

My comment on the power of a KDY planetary gun is based on the NIF database, which states that the LNR-1 can destroy frigates in a single shot. How accurate the NIF database is is another matter entirely.